Transform discussion

This topic contains 7 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  Xyn 5 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #19724

    impronoucabl

    So I’ve just revived my transform army & thought I’d give some feed back to the devs/community.

    Here’s my current transform army:

    Aside from a few commander twerks (with his front), I don’t think I can do any better.

    Now, the first thing anyone might ask is; “Where’s Rohk?” Tbh Rohk does not belong in this type of army at all. S/He/It belongs in hybrid armies, & that’s pretty much it. As a unit for this army, S/He/It contributes too little in all ways, her cost, combined with that s/he/it produces no wood when transforming means I MUST transform into something with a 1+ cost. I think it’s fair to say that’s impossible. If you want Rohk to be in this sort of army, I suggest making him/her/it cost 3 & produce wood whilst transforming.

    Now, onto the win condition. It very rarely, if ever works. You dedicate 80% of your army just to get the biggest, meanest dude out (& it’s surprisingly reliable at doing so) but either:
    1. Your opponent has also gotten their ones out or;
    2.You don’t do enough damage with those 3 units (esp. after wounding, etc).
    The easiest solution is to make your commander a very big bad menacing unit, but that runs into 2 problems, 1 of which I’ll get into later. The first problem is cost.
    Ool has a transform limit of 15, meaning your commander will do ~16 damage at best. If you opponent has a bigger commander, then you are screwed. But more importantly you need your commander for something else.

    This type of army desperately needs a recruit+transform unit. Playing it properly depends on you being able to manipulate your army as any given point in time. Recruit alone is not good enough, as it will lead to 2 possible situations:
    1.You use Ench or another cheap recruiter, & it blocks/slows down your transforms (or at least makes it very annoying.)
    2. You use Blight or another expensive recruiter, & you don’t get recruit early enough.

    Finally, there is a very distinct lack of utility/support in this army (I.e heal, wound, arrow), meaning it is an all or nothing strategy based on those 3 toughest units you try to get out. Aside from Abbie, all transform units have “boring” front row abilities; this army lacks a late-game outside of those 3 win units. you can’t get any more of these units, or else you risk horrible, HORRIBLE turn 2s.

    General notes:
    – This army is immune to back arrows/drain, but completely devastated by front arrows/drain. Fireballs are so-so
    – Perhaps there might be a variant with Casts instead of Melvars for more immediate damage, although I don’t know where/how you would heal them from their dormancy.
    – You can get a Melvar extra early if you happen to transform into early Ool. Bring him in front with 2 Duigs & sell him for 6W+6C.
    – Conversely, if you have a wounded Melvar, you can sell him to hire Ool.
    – Aethon & Vyros aren’t in here because front row transform is too hard to control.

    – I recommend a buff to Ool’s transform, 20 transform has very little difference compared to 15 transform. The only reason I was able to put in Blight is because Blight costs >15; everything ignores it when transforming. Transforming into Wail is also fine, since none of the other units are wolves/hunters, & he’s impractical to play normally anyway.

    – I also recommend transform defaults to the bottom ability on commanders, since it will stop the 2nd ability from triggering if it is the first ability.

    #19733

    george011

    Can you explain in a little more detail how you use Recruit + Transform to optimize what you turn into? And if Transform being the top ability turns off the second ability, does the 3 wood from Abbie ever get generated? And – how do you get Blight out?

    #19735

    Raijinili

    The more cards you see, the more you know about what you’ll transform into.

    Huh, Abbie DOES work.

    #19736

    impronoucabl

    @geaorge011,

    As Raijinilli said, it allows you to control which exact units are in your “deck”. As I run 15 units (for the early turn when I don’t have 10 units out) I’ll need the recruit in case I can’t draw that Ob I need to start the transform chain, etc.

    Abbie looks like she’s been mislabeled on the matrix, in game, the positions of her abilities are reversed. (@Pyeontae if you are reading)

    You play blight by selling Krens. You more often than not end up with 2 spare Krens (lategame), combined with Abbie & Duig, its actually fairly easy to get out. Its ironic that the biggest unit I get out, isn’t directly from transform, (unlike matriarch……)

    Also on the topic of matriarch, the key differences I think are:

    1. Matriarch can be done repetitively, at no extra cost.
    2. Matriarch guarantees pseudo-production (up to +15, & fairly reliably at +10), while transform requires setup for fairly reliable pseudo-production around +4(avg, depends on unit).
    3. Matriarch’ed units get to act, transformed units don’t.
    4. Transform has no type limit.

    As a standard, I’d say you could replace transform with half its value as Wood + vanish, whereas for Matriarch you might as well say 10 Wood.

    #19738

    partarvo

    I know it goes a bit against the deck’s nature, but how about meades as a 1 of? he produces 4C sells for 2 = Melvar he costs 6 so he might block some of your transform

    #19740

    impronoucabl

    Yeah, its mostly reliability issues with Meades. I could replace Kren with him, but then Abbie & commander becomes slightly less reliable, + I can’t normally hire Meades.

    #19742

    Xyn

    I don’t have many Transform units, but I’ll mess around a little with what I’ve got and see if I can come up with anything to post. Afraid I don’t have much to say on the subject at the moment, as my experience with the ability is minimal and mostly disappointing so far.

    On the subject of Matriarch, one or two small changes would definitely even the playing field, maybe even warranting removing Lynaia’s Frail, as that’s not even a major weakness against a majority of decks. If there were a status like Wounded that only lasted one turn, let’s call it Stunned, Matriarched units could start out Stunned, and then when they “move” right after being matriarched out, they would use that turn to lose their stun, instead of using their abilities. Between Spike shooting off double arrows, Viath producing 5 wood, and Era healing 6 points, having Matriarched units instantly act is just a little too good.

    Even that one change may be enough to even the odds, but a few other additional tweaks might help as well. Lower than +15 on some Matriarchs, some sort of penalties or limitations on cross faction Matriarch, etc.

    Transform is definitely a lot closer to being balanced. It can actually be pretty effective if used well, but isn’t usually easy to make the most out of. I think maybe the way to go is to tweak the balance so that Matriarch is a lot easier to use, but is potentially less powerful than Transform, while Transform is harder to use and build decks around, but is potentially more powerful than Matriarch. I think that aiming for that balance is about the only way to balance the two abilities while staying true to their core natures.

    #19750

    Xyn

    Based on my limited Transform units, I haven’t had a lot of luck, but the recruit thing seems to be a big deal.

    A Recruit + Transform Commander definitely seems important, and it will always (and should always) be the best value you can get for recruit and transform, but I’m thinking there should be some alternative.

    I’d like to see a new unit who produces recruit and transform.

    Either something like:
    Cost: 6 wood
    Back: 3 recruit, 8 transform

    or:
    Cost: 6 wood
    Back: 5 recruit, 6 transform

    or:
    Cost: 4 wood
    Back: 2 recruit, 6 transform

    or something like that, with whatever front row seems appropriate to keep it balanced.

    Recruit just seems too integral to Transform armies to not have a non Commander unit who bridges that gap somehow.

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