This topic contains 8 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by fichom 6 years, 2 months ago.
July 16, 2013 at 10:47 am #13197
I understand the math behind combining tiers of items and how the cost is calculated off of the price of the base goods with a modifier (I’m assuming that is based) off of the complexity of the combinations/rarity of different goods. However, the pricing of the base goods makes no sense. Tree nodes only yield one wood. Food nodes only yield 2 food. While stone and water nodes each yield 4. Stone and water are the most common, so they should be the least valuable. Obviously invert that for wood.
Now, if I’m not combining anything but a base resource with itself. So if I use 16 wood to make a wood bust, why is it only worth ~1500 when my neighbor can do the same thing with 16 stone for ~2300–but they only need to gather from four nodes while I gather from 16? Obviously my little flans worked harder to gather from 16 separate nodes, they should be rewarded more for their effort.
I understand having to seek out the “best” item to make, but when you start in an area with 2 food nodes, 0 water nodes, 1 stone node, and roughly 20 tree nodes, what’s the obvious choice to try?
Now obviously I don’t know the overall distribution and whether or not trees, overall, are more liable to spawn in a map than stone/water, so that should be taken into account, but when it is literally four times harder to make the “same” item from different base resources, shouldn’t the advantage go to the person that had to do more work to get that item?July 16, 2013 at 12:47 pm #13212
I wanted to start topic like this, but there is obviously a Thread limit you can have in certain amount of time on this forum, which is in one way good, but in other very annoying. But let’s leave that for another thread. This post is very long. So if you don’t have energy to read it whole, please don’t read it half way trough and than ask questions that are already answered in it. Also i would love for developers to check this, as it might play an important role in the future of this game. Because what players hate most is CHANCE being a big factor in deciding how good you will be in a game.
I totally agree on this matter. Wood is “useless”. Of course, as you need wood for any major recipe, you can’t say it is useless, but getting mostly wood in start will 100% result in your kingdom to be far behind anyone else. Well why is this?
In Leap Day, there is one simple rule: More profit means faster development, and faster development means more profit. Now if you think about it, you see that it is an infinite loop. Now if a player starts with more profit(aka gold/leap day) at the start of the game, that player is bound to have better kingdom than people that have lower profit. Only way for this not to happen is for player to be inactive or be new to the game concept, but that is a totally different topic to discuss. So let’s check how big of an impact can an “Tree”-only environment at the start of the game impact development and growth of a player. Great example is my current game.
I started in a field with 2 stone sources, 1 food source, 3 water sources and 29! trees. Now if you did some simple math, you would estimate that my property, without combining resources, is 144(stone)+20(food)+60(water)+435(wood)=659. My neighbor, on the other hand, had 2 stone, 6 food, 2 water and 10 wood. That equals to 422 gold as raw materials. Now one would thing: Well great, you got 50% more gold from raw materials than him, you should do better. But that is not truth. One more thing that is as important as gold you can get out of your resources is space.
Now if you calculate, i had 35 spaces taken up by resources on my field, and only 20 taking up his field. If we do some math, we can see that gold/field in my case is 18,83 gold(note that equation for this is “gold from raw resources” divided by “amount of squares” all those resources take), and my neighbor’s gold/field is 21,1. That is obviously more. Now it seems meaningless, but we could imagine that this amount is the approximate cost of 1 empty field as well. Now if you count that there are 224 squares on starter field(240- 16 that palace takes), this means that my empty squares, which I have
224 – 35 (that resources take) = 189 in total is worth 189 x 18,83 = 3558,87 gold. On the other hand, my neighbor has 204 empty squares, which means all of his empty squares are worth 204 x 21,1 = 4304,4 gold, which is 745,53 gold more than my empty squares are worth. If you add up gold from raw resources you get, it turns out my field is worth 3558,87 + 659 = 4217,87 gold. That is still less than the value of the empty squares of my neighbor(4303,4), not to mention when you add up money from his resources: 4303,4 + 422 = 4725,4 gold! that means that my neighbor here has started off with a field that is 507,53 gold more worthy, or in percentages: 12%! Imagine you starting with 12% more gold, or even better, have your gold income get extra 12%, for no other reason, but because you got a nice spot.
Now some of you may thing: “Well this math you just did is complete nonsense, and you just made it so the number would be bigger! Empty squares have value of 0 gold!” But that is not truth. If you, in an “ideal” case had all your fields filled with resources, you could never, ever in no matter how much time, collect any gold, because you would have no space to build the roads, or expand with torches. Not to mention that, to get more advanced things, you need factories. And they take up hell of a lot space. This why i think those “empty square” values are on the sport, and show real image.
Now to see the real worth of 1 unit of each resource:
Now if you look at those numbers and draw a line, you would kind of have a linear line, except you have stone: 72 gold!! It is almost 4 times the worth of next most profitable resource per field: water and food. And where is wood? It bringing 15 gold per piece is just an optical illusion, because in truth, it brings the least! And it is more than 4 times less gold efficient than stone. Now this is only as raw material… but what happens when you try to make something big?
Let’s take statues for example. Why? Because they use only 1 type of raw material, so it is easy to calculate how much gold we get from space those materials take up. Every statue takes 64 pieces of raw materials to be produced. Now some base info on each statue:
squares resources take: 64
squares resources take: 16
squares resources take: 32
gold/square: 74,7 (let’s say 75)
squares resources take: 16
gold/square: 334,81(let’s say 335)
Now if you look closer, you will find something strange again. Stone is again spiking. You could almost say stone compared to food, water and dirt, is a diamond compared to ruby, emerald, and a lump of dirt. Yes, a lump of dirt. I mean, stone statue is 6!! times more efficient than than wooden one. And why is that? Well because we need some resources that is better than some other. But this better? I mean, that is like having 1 player per game have his 4 resources turn into 4 different gems, so he can produce shields by himself… It’s just crazy! And now the scary part: if we take in the fact that me, who is surrounded by trees will make wooden statue, and my neighbor surrounded by stones will attempt to make a stone one, not only does he get almost 2000 gold more than me for the statue, he also saves: 21,1, amount of 1 empty square, times 48(amount of empty squares he saves, as he need only 16, while i need 64 squares of resources to get the statue going) which is equal to 1012,8 gold. Now if you add that to the value of the stone statue, it ends up being worth 6369 gold! That is almost double the wooden one.
Now again, you will think this is some crazy math I came up with, and that these numbers are meaningless, but just imagine, for example, how much torches i need to use to make a wooden statue. I need at least 5 (but if you are “lucky”, you will need 6 or 7) torches to reveal so much wood, and than ill need an extra 2 or 3 torches to make enough space for all my factories and roads, as wood will take away most of space my torches will reveal. On the other hand, my neighbor will need 3 to 4 torches to get all the stone he needs, and maybe 1 or 2 torches to get some extra space, as stone is very space-efficient, and he will be able to build most of the production line on land he revealed while going for stone. Now in my case, i need a minimum of 7 torches, while he needs a minimum of 4. That is 3 torches of difference. Now in my case, 3 last torches will cost me 825,000 gold, while last 3 torches will cost my neighbor 510,000 gold. That is, if rounded up, 300,000 gold more. That is as if both he and me started on the same spot, with same resources, but he had 300,000 gold more to start with! That is crazy. That is 2.5 times more gold than you usually stat with!! 2.5 times!
Now some concrete numbers from the current game I’m playing(so 2 days and 1,5 hours have passed):
My current gold/leap day: 2200 -> 600 from trade, the other 1400 is the wooden bust)
My neighbor’s gold/leap day: 11116 -> 5480 gold from trading, and that is him and his neighbor producing stone statue, other from his own production and trading with me. I give him gems and he in the end sells Prayer stones. Now you might think. “Why didn’t you make it so you sell prayer stones, or at least produce rings or fired stone bricks at your side, you would get more gold!” Because I have no space to make that! Because every direction I expand to, there are hundreds of worthless lumps of dirt waiting for me, while my neighbor is surrounded by diamonds. Fair? I don’t think so!
Now do I think stone should be worthless lump of dirt, just like wood? No! Do I think that there should be only 1 resource in this game? Well hell no, combining resources is what makes up this game. What I think that should be done is following: first, make Trees bring at least 2 pieces of wood per Tree. Also, reduce the gold value of 1 piece of stone. Sure, stone can stay most valuable resource, but even if you lover it’s price on 10 gold per 1 stone, you still get 40 gold out of 1 source. Of course, that means reduction on statues, which i think is all right, because i think that combining 64 pieces of same thing all the time, while not having any kind of space issue isn’t that hard, and shouldn’t be rewarded so much. Instead, make those super-hard items, that need more cooperation between players bring more gold. I mean, if you asked me, as it is, wooden statue should bring at least 8000-9000 gold, and 1 wooden bust should be worth around 3000 gold, because really it is the hardest thing to make.
Now I already have an idea of things you guys might find not good in my post, but I don’t want to make it longer, so it stops here. Instead of writing infinitely long post with all the factors that would have to change, ill just give them when people ask about it. It is not like I didn’t think a lot about this topic. I mean just look a this post! It is more than FOUR A4 pages!July 16, 2013 at 1:05 pm #13214
That sounds a lot like you haven’t really looked at the distribution and you haven’t really tried to make busts from different materials.
It’s much harder to get a hold of 16 stone than it is to get a hold of 16 wood. You can easily end up with 16 wood in your starter area, but for 16 stone you will usually need two or three torches, unless extremely lucky. That alone justifies the higher value of stone products already. Stone is definitely not one of the most common. Stone nodes do not commonly occur in clusters, while trees usually do.
I agree that water is the most common, and that’s why it’s the least valuable.
You will rarely be able to just make four loops with one flan each to harvest all four stone out of one node, since you have to cover that extra distance – instead, you’ll have to have four flans bring one stone each, and at that point, it’s already the same as if not a higher investment than in four wood, which you can probably gather from a very small area. And even when you can make a single flan loop – it is just as easy to make a loop encompassing four trees in a forest and have one flan pick those.
Also, and you probably don’t know this, wood products used to be so valuable that starting in a forest was a massive boon (conversely, not starting in a forest, you were at a disadvantage already). As soon as you had a certain number of trees in your terrain, there was nothing else you could reasonably do but stack wood products. Players felt that this was boring and unbalanced, and they felt they didn’t have the choice to make any other items at all as soon as wood was available.
This is why wood products are at the value they are now.July 16, 2013 at 1:19 pm #13215
True, stone is more rare, but there are always 2 spots on map that have a lot of stone, and usually there is only 1 torch needed to make the busts… Note that you need 32 resources for bust. For wood, that is 32 Trees, and for stone it is 8 Rocks. I think it is easier to find 8 Rocks than it is to get 32 Trees. Also, I also mentioned in my post, if you have stones around, that means you have more space, and you can save a lot of money on paths and extra cranes if you need to redirect some “trash”(so a tree or a lake that is in the way of collection).
Water is not the least valuable, wood is… Just look at my calculations.
And this part with easier to collect wood than stone is ridiculous. To collect 4 wood, in best case you will have 4 trees staying in 2×2 grid To collect them in best case you will need 2 2×2 circular roads, so that is in total 8 pieces of road, while for stone you need only 1 2×2 road, that is 4 pieces of road. Now this is not big difference, but when you consider you have to loop around >>>32<<< trees, that is a lot of roads, while if you use 2×2 or 4×2 roads for stones, you basically need less road. Not to mention trees are usually in such position you will have to have 2-3 flans that will have to collect 2-3 wood, and than run around in circles doing nothing, while on 1 source of stone 1 flan is more than enough(unless very far away in which case you will need 2-3, but that is still less than for all the wood you need to collect). A loop encompassing 4 trees takes 12 pieces path, while a loop encompassing a rock is 9 pieces of path. But that is stupid, as you can just build a 4 piece circular path next to rock, so it actually takes 3 times more path to collect same amount of resources(by your design).
Yes, I know this, I joined game pretty early, i still have 4x slow rail cart that i got back than, and some totems that i think you can no longer get…
And for the last part. You didn’t read my whole post. Two ways i know this. First is that there is no way you could have read my whole post, but you just probably jumped from one part to the other, where I compared me and my neighbor. The other way I know this is because i have actually mentioned all four resources in my postJuly 16, 2013 at 1:28 pm #13216
fichom, your post wasn’t up when I started typing my reply, so of course I hadn’t read it at the time. I was adressing the OP, not you.
Either way, I think I’m outta here now. Sorry if you felt attacked.July 16, 2013 at 1:29 pm #13217
Ok, sry, my bad…but still what I said there stands…July 16, 2013 at 4:12 pm #13222
I haven’t looked at the distributions and I have made busts from all materials. regardless of how “sparse” stone might be, there’s always places where there are 4 stone nodes relatively near. And each time it’s always been easier to make stone/water than wood. Stone is just disproportionately more valuable. It might be more sparse, but it’s not sparse enough that it makes it harder to combine than pure wood. When there’s enough wood to make a bust “easily” then it’s very costly to actually get the wood to a centralized location. Either more shops to combine wood first, or more roads/trains/cranes/workers to get it to a single shop.July 18, 2013 at 1:48 pm #13263
@fichom: For someone complaining about other posters not reading thoroughly, you should take your own advice. As Silverthorn pointed out, the big problem with stone is that you invariably end up need to carry it a long distance. While you can indeed often find a few nodes within the single starting torch you get, it is typically the case that you very soon end up needing to build a long road with four houses to grab the next set of four.
If you start in a forest, I’m fairly confident that you can build a statue with the wood available within 4-5 torches. Even in a starting area with a lot of stone, I’d be surprised to see a setup using fewer than 7-8 torches. I very strongly contest your claim that an average starting area can reach 8 stone nodes (within the first torch). I can probably count on one hand how many games I’ve seen meeting that requirement. Wood nodes have much higher density than any other resource, stone has much lower density than any other. This is exactly why making wood statues usually results in the player needing cash for more houses, while making porcelain statues usually results in the player needing cash for more torches.July 27, 2013 at 5:10 pm #13459
OK, maybe you need 2 torches, but it is possible with 1 torch, while you can not have a wood bust with only 1 torch. Also, yes sometimes it is needed to carry stone long distances, but that is 10 times easier than having to manage space issues you have when you are surrounded by trees. Yes, in some cases, you could REVEAL enough wood for a wood statue with 4-5 torches, but you would need at least 1 or 2 more to make space for factories, as wood takes lot’s of space. Last game i played, I started on a “blessed” spot, as I like to call it. I needed 2 torches to make the stone bust, but with 3 torches, i was making stone statue. And neighbor next to me was making one with 3 torches as well. How did that end up? He and I completed 90% of the boss, as we decided we will swap our statues, to double our profits. We had 11k profit EACH, while other people were only making it about 3k-6k. And those with 6k were trading a lot.
Also, in my current game, a guy that is on the “blessed” spot managed to reveal 5 stone sources, while he already had 2 on his territory. Sure, that is not enough for bust, but next torch he plants will reveal extra 4 sources. If you says that with 2 torches revealing 11 stone sources(note, that means with 2 torches, 44 stones) is not much, you are mistaken. Not to mention that he has all the space he want’s to build any kind of factory line(including porcelain bust, and with my help, we could make porcelain statue easily). On the other hand, me, who is surrounded by trees, need 4(read: double from 2) torches to revel that many treas… and I still can’t even dream about statue, because trees take way too much space to make any big factory line…
Also, there is the “pollution” factor you have to take in. Pollution? Is this guy going mad? Yes, pollution. With this many trees around, my space is limited, so is choice of my roads. That means that 1 water source can block 10 of my tree sources, because it is just standing there, and i can’t go around it, while when you have stone, there is so much space, you can spiral around your stone and you will still have space to place a factory on the side.
I’ll stop it here so another monster like my first post on this thread wouldn’t happen. ^^
The forum ‘LD – General Discussion’ is closed to new topics and replies.