No challenge now

This topic contains 15 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  anxiousgeek 6 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #10680

    runedrake

    Even black hearts are easy to make if you want to make it… also with recipes only using 2 items each it is a lot easier to reuse the factories multiple times. I find no challenge now.

    One way to fix this is adding harder maps (or make the current maps harder). If you are at a shortage of map ideas I am willing to think some up for you.

    #10682

    kayybee

    Yes, what used to be a challenge before is now extremely easy. Like the pink flamingo. I think I saw someone get it with the starting money.

    The easiest way to solve this would just be to add more maps (and maybe items, like the black heart went almost 1/4 the price because of its easiness).

    #10690

    kheldar633

    Yeah, this new world order feels like a completely different game than we were playing just a few days ago. It is repetitive and social, as before, but the challenge has been completely removed. I’ve been in a few games already that were nowhere near full and usual suspects don’t respond to invites. It seems like most of the people who were intrigued with this game have shrugged and moved on as a result of these changes.

    In a game like this where cooperation and the community are so important, it seems odd to me that there is no obvious community manager on–or interfacing with–the development team. I can point to many forum threads asking devs direct questions that have gone unanswered. We’ve even had devs ask us for input on new recipes and bosses but no follow-up feedback is returned. And then a change like this one lands out of nowhere.

    I realize it’s a beta and that we players aren’t privy to most of what’s behind the scenes, but this here’s a two-way street. In the spirit of a game that is so dependent on cooperation, this lack of communication feels disingenuous. It has been bothering me for a while, even before these recent changes.

    Blah.

    #10748

    Daniel
    Member

    Usually there are multiple posts a day by devs on the forum, but it is indeed difficult to respond to every question since it is a small team. However, we do read everything. :-)

    The game is very much a work in progress. If something is broken, say so. There’s a good chance we’ll weigh the options and try to improve things. Some changes take longer than others so don’t be alarmed if some issues are fixed in a week while other take a month.

    I would love to see the map with a pink flamingo with starting money. Very curious how folks are using the new crafting buildings and factories.

    I’ve heard two comments on the new recipes:
    – Early game doesn’t provide enough money.
    – Late game is too easy. Previously difficult items are now much simpler to make with 2 ingredient factories.

    Our goals for the current pass were:
    1) No wildcards.
    Status: Done!

    2) Miser factories as starting item to increase short term retention.
    Status: Working! However, it hurts the expert game long term more than expected.

    3) Introduce crafting buildings as shortcuts, collectibles, and easier start to crafting.
    Status: Still rolling out. They are dropped for new users and dropped in booster packs, but not as loot. We’ve found they would benefit from being rotatable. As a result not many are using them. Since this is hopefully the dominant menas of crafting items in the future, it is important to get folks using them more and gather more observations.

    So we’ve got some work to do. One idea I’m contemplating for the non-crafting building path:
    – Reintroduce 3 & 5 ingredient factories for higher tier goods.
    – Still disallow wildcards. This means a 3 ingredient recipe must be made with a 3 ingredient factory.

    Let me know what you think.
    Danc.

    #10756

    qonen

    In two of my current games (qubits) I started with flamingos from my starting 300k. In one I’ve moved on to two birds, but the core is still there. All it takes is being able to reach two ponds, two stone, four berry bushes, and 8 wood with just one torch. Unless it is in a forest, there is usually enough room to get things to fit without an excessive amount of rail (which would exceed the budget). Flamingos should be nerfed along with the other stacked items.

    For long-time players, if totems are removed (a good balance choice), I suspect the difference between too easy and impossibly hard is rather narrow. With time constraints gone (also probably a good choice), then things come down to just resource and space constraints. Original Tom Jones was a good exercise in constrained resources (if totems are removed). It requires just the right distribution of resources to be neither too easy nor too hard. It felt almost right, but now with flamingos requiring 8/25 of the resources, it is no longer balanced. The Dark Lorde is an exercise in space constraints, but it is not hard after doing it a few times. Right now there is plenty of space for all single-use factories, so there is no need to create clever production chains. Make production chains much more complicated, though, and folks will probably either find it too difficult or too tedious. 3-ingredient recipes are fine, but I don’t think it it would have a meaningful impact if only applied to higher tier goods.

    I’d like to bump my previous suggestion of scenario maps. I think they would be approachable by all player types. New or casual players may enjoy just completing the objective while long-time players looking for a challenge could optimize the heck out of them, pushing whatever the current rules set is to the limit.

    #10760

    Zerack

    Just a short comment: To increase motivation / perceived difficulty, have you (the developers) considered a leaderboard? Since you store observer links, I know that you have all of the boss / player(s) / completion time data in some form. This is potentially an easy way of increasing perceived challenge in expert games without burdening the game mechanics with more difficulty.

    Then again, you could always just expose a leaderboard API…. :evil grin:

    #10838

    Silverthorn

    Some more opinion on the new recipes/the new system:

    This is a bit difficult to articulate, as it’s more of a sentiment than tangible data, but it’s been bothering me.

    The new recipes still feel somewhat … off, even after getting more used to the new system.

    It appears the recipe system was originally created with three-input factories/crafting in mind, and then, when the shift to two-input crafting came, the existing system was pressed into a new shape, instead of made to naturally cater to the new crafting; ie., a system primarily geared towards an uneven number of ingredients was adapted for a primarily even number of ingredients, and it feels way too obvious that this is what happened.

    So the recipes that feel especially awkward now are those that used to require three distinct ingredients, such as glass.
    It now requires the crafting of a preliminary item from two raw resources (-> ore), and then the addition of another raw resource.

    So in essence, the “three raw ingredients required” approach was kept (just masked as a two-ingredient thing), the item was made more complicated instead of less (one additional step required/one additional factory required) and the item was delinearized/unbalanced (what tier would it be now, probably tier 1.5?).
    On top of that, despite the higher initial investment (one more factory and one more flan circle at the least), it’s now worth less gold than before.
    Just feels weird and “out of the flow”, if that makes any sense.

    Another example/case in point: dull armor, or rather, all the armor sets and some other gem items.
    Crystals give three gems each. We have three types of rings, necklaces, and shields each. We had three dull/shadow/glowing items (crown/scepter/amulet). Everything was perfectly aimed towards three-input crafting.
    With the switch to two-input crafting, again, it feels awkward to have two of crown/scepter/amulet now form earrings (a higher item), then to add the third (lower) item to earrings again to make the armor.

    In my opinion, this is partially still three-input crafting in a new costume, minus all the advantages we had from making these items with three-input factories.
    Coupled with the decreased value of the final product, it’s lost most of its appeal/fun in making, and indeed I haven’t seen anyone make any gem items other than rings for income ever since.

    Maybe it might’ve given the new system a more natural feel to add earrings as a fourth item on the same level as crown/scepter/amulet, and then have two of them each make another item (maybe front plate/back plate), and then have those two form the armor.
    Likewise, maybe there should be four ring, necklace and shield types now (or just two), and maybe crystals should give either two or four gems each.
    Maybe glass should be made from ore and another item that is formed from two raw resources, for the sake of being linear.

    I can only guess that that would’ve been quite a bit more work than the current solution, so I can see why it was done how it was done, but I just can’t get rid of the band-aidy feel of some of it.

    I’ve also been wondering whether the same simplifying effect couldn’t have been achieved by eliminating wildcards out of the three-input factories, so that each or most combinations of three inputs would’ve made a valid item.
    At least that would also have solved the problem with new players just tossing all their resources into a factory and selling off whatever that makes at the start. (But again, I realize that might have been exponentially more work due to the additional combinations).

    Regarding the re-introduction of 3- and 5-ingredient factories for more advanced crafting, I honestly wonder if two- and three-/five-ingredient crafting (ie, crafting with even numbers and crafting with odd numbers) are compatible at all, see the above.
    There is a lot of potential in the two-ingredient system for more advanced things as well I think.

    Regarding crafting buildings:

    As of right now, many of us are puzzled regarding their usefulness over regular basic factories (excluding the not being turnable issue) and why they are being pushed so hard.
    The only difference we can see right now is that the crafting buildings only accept the ingredients they need, so there is no need to filter out wrong resources – actually, there is not even a need to watch whether you’re picking and delivering only the correct resources at all. Whether that’s good or bad, I’m not sure.
    Other than that, it’s currently tough to see the need for them. When I’ve seen people use them, it was just because well, they had them and they were curious, not because there was a perceived advantage to them.

    Hope I made a little bit of sense :s

    #10844

    colemanpants

    Those are great thoughts for us to ponder. Really appreciate it. One of the things we have to wait on a bit is for people to shift their strategies to the new balance of things. This is complicated by the fact that the game is at least temporarily less balanced in general by all the changes. It’s a type of Design Inertia. This was admittedly a big change and we’re noodling on the next direction to move the needle. This is very helpful.

    Best,
    J

    #10940

    dornbeast

    Daniel: Here’s an early Flamingo. Not quite with the starting money, I suspect – I sold some Mahna Mahnas while I was working out the details – but near enough to make the point.

    http://leapdaygame.com/index.html?observe=Pub_f7020961-6522-4381-ab3d-93688c1b44f9&player=5&x=97&y=66

    #10944

    jchrisholmes

    I don’t know how I feel about the loss of the 3 port factory, but the loss of the 5 port one is crushing.

    The new version is boring to play and feels like it isn’t any challenge at all.

    The old 3/5 design seemed core to the game itself and isn’t something I ever imagined would change. I feel bad saying it, but now I wish I hadn’t shelled out $20.

    #10946

    toquerific

    I have been playing for awhile now and while I consider myself a relative newbie I have witnessed a lot of change.

    I was in a game where a fellow player was lamenting the loss of stationary flans. Remember when you could stick a flan on a single plank and they would feed water, rock, fruit constantly!

    It was awesome! Then it was gone and I understand why and we adapted.

    Since this recent change I have done more crafting for income then I have ever done before. But I have also witnessed quite a few players stuck with sub 500/day income at the end of a game, seemingly lost for how to progress.

    I don’t have any easy solutions, I know what I don’t like.

    I don’t like the speciality factories, they look nice but functionally seem redundant. But as even a stone ring is now only 525 I have only used them when required for a tower.

    I also don’t like the 2+1 recipes (spices + wood = cooked food), they are never really worth the input unless you are working in bulk. Making flour to make flat bread for example.

    I also have a problem with water. When the single resource stacking was slashed, then starting positions surrounded with water left the person putting out thousands to get back hundreds.

    I realize that this game is meant to appeal to a broad audience. Keeping the casual gamer is important and anyone reading and writing in these forums is more than a casual player.

    I like this game because it is social, I liked that you had to work together and communicate to win.

    That hasn’t changed (unless you count inviting your second account to a neighbouring slot), but what is not clearly explained is that while you can just play casually, if you want to improve you need to look around the map. Learn some tricks, drop a phone booth and ask a question, lose a game (back when you could lose) and try again.

    These things help you, other players and their suggestions help you.

    But I think we as devoted players also have to remember that if there are 1000 of us here and we each bought the $20 starter pack. That’s $20,000. Which isn’t a whole lot of money for the development of a game we all seem to really enjoy.

    We trust that these concerns and complaints and suggestions are being heard and will be considered in the development cycle and we try to remember that is a game and we are supposed to have fun.

    Cheers :D

    #10948

    Daniel
    Member

    @dornbeast Nice! Appreciate that link.

    @toquerific I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. I don’t know if Leap Day will ever be a giant mass market game and that really isn’t our goal. But I do want to make attract enough players so that we have a stable community. So those are some of the changes going on right now.

    We’ve got a lot of knobs to make the game harder and we’ll be adding back in difficulty as we go. However, we haven’t had a lot of tools to train new players up. So we are slowly building those. Some examples:
    – Tutorial maps
    – Museums to save and reload your setups
    – Easier to use crafting buildings.

    These will end up paying off for advanced players as well. Making tutorials means that we now have the tools to make custom expert maps with interesting layouts. I’m hoping everyone can make use of the museums with making big uncertain changes to their layouts. Even crafting has some nice secrets waiting to be revealed.

    Happy day,
    Danc.

    #11037

    leapaubepine

    Hello, (i am still not a native english speaker, so sry for my mistakes)

    I agree that right now the game is too easy but still, there are things that i like in the changes that were made :

    – I like the fact that overall we have lower income, it makes things a little bit slower and that’s fine for me.
    – I like that we don’t have wildcards anymore, that is great !
    – I don’t mind the use of misere factories. Building 4 Absinthe is as fun as it was so i am ok with that. I aspecially don’t miss arge factory and stacking items they used to build…
    – I like the nerf of stacking items (statues and co. that have now a multiplier of 1.2)

    But there are still a really big problem : we do not have enough diversity and enough options when we want to increase our income. Past items of the level of spyglass we basically have only 3 options :

    – Flamingo (yes, you forgot to nerf his multiplier so now everyone build it when they can)
    – Absinthe x 4 (i have never seen anyone else build it for income because flamingo is too strong, but it is really fun and in my opinion, building this kind of item is the true spirit of this game)
    – Spyglass (and other small dead en items) x 12 or x 16. You will agree with me that it is not really fun…

    I know it is not easy to balance the game but there are some simple solutions that would improve things :

    – remove the specific multiplier of dead end items that break diversity. Building Hair Elixir, Wine of Death or Gunship for income would be great ! But at the moment it is just not competitive… So you build 16 Spyglass or a Flamingo… Making only 2 multiplier would solve the problem : I think 1.3 for 2 identical items (except items that are build from basic goods) and 1.8 for 2 different items would be fine.
    – Try to not group the same type of goods on the map. Forest and swamp are realistic but lower your options.
    OR Increase the value of water from 5 to 8 and the value of food from 10 to 12 in order to give better options for people who starts into swamps.
    – add more complicated items : items like Absinthe for income purpose and items like black heart for boss.

    I think the more important think to do right now is to standardize multipliers, but hey, you are the devs so you choose ;)

    #11072

    raetonycass

    I was once an avid player. Now I find myself not playing for a day or two at a time. Why? Because to me it is now boring. It takes way way too long to build up any income. I spend way way more buildig income paths than what I reap from it. I like a game where I can play, do, something. For me this has turned into a game of hurry up and wait. I haven’t seen any of my usualy playmates in over a week. I can handle the 2 input factories but waiting to build up the gold to buy the necessary number of factories to make a $300 item is just not fun. It even takes so much gold to reach another player to craft with. Then those stupid crafting buildings can’t even be rotated to a usable option in some cases. It just isn’t fun. Sorry. You are losing this player quickly.

    #11122

    kheldar633

    Yeah, I hear ya. I have 3 heirs, and used to have 2-3 active in games at all times. Lately I have 0-1 active in games and login to/monitor those games far less frequently.

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