Next big change?

This topic contains 44 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  Tempus 6 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #14746

    jchrisholmes

    For me, the RPG mechanic of “upgrading” recipes and having to pick up golden goods to do that is incredibly boring.

    I also think that given the size of things in the world, having all the shops being 3×3 is just too large.

    Loss of default rail and allowing most shops to let the wrong good go by means that the challenge of routing is almost gone – now it’s all about just having enough space because the 3×3 shopps are huge.

    3/5 was fun, everything since has just been boring.

    Is this the final form or are more major changes coming?

    #14781

    claudekennilol

    Loss of default rail and allowing most shops to let the wrong good go by means that the challenge of routing is almost gone – now it’s all about just having enough space because the 3×3 shopps are huge.

    Definitely agree here. Especially in a heavily wooded area. Since trees are guaranteed to come in pairs, if you’re in a “forest” then it’s extremely difficult to produce anything worthwhile when first starting. Loss of trains is a huge, well, loss.

    Before tempus comes in here and tells anyone reading to just go 5 star an easy level and hope for a train. Yes, that’s a solution (to a problem that shouldn’t exist). But it’s not fun (or challenging) to go beat an easy level. And it’s even less fun for the people that join then come back in a few hours only to see that you’ve finished the map. I’ve been on both sides, and while it can be a slight degree of entertaining to rush through the level, the challenge isn’t there. I don’t want to be forced to go play a simple level simply because the last complicated level I played didn’t yield a train upon completion and I can’t be as helpful as I ought to be in the next level I want to play.

    #14812

    Tempus

    I hate the golden chests. I hate the incompletable maps that require golden chest upgrades to be able to complete – but the upgrades are dropped by only the incompletable maps. I hate the frustration and sense of waste that comes with trying to stockpile valuable chests and chucking crappy ones because the loot drops never give you any of what you need for useful recipes. I hate finding the darned little things in my massive, confusing looking factories, and clicking on em. I hate browsing the training list looking for what I need.

    The only thing I like about chests is that they finally offer meta progression – this is handicapped by the extremely limited stage offerings, the catch22 upgrade paths, the crappy random drops and their rate that makes it difficult to work towards any goal in any reasonable period. And I really hate the incompletable maps that drop all that loot I want but will never get because I need it to beat the maps.

    I also don’t like doing easy levels to get items after having to abandon the tough maps so that I can get more items to try the other tough maps so I can abandon those when they end up impossible to win.

    #14813

    garmichael

    I like the core concept of the chests a lot, but what really bugs me is that catch 22 Tempus mentioned. In order to upgrade, say, Porcelain Busts, you need a Fast Train. However, to get a Fast Train, you have to beat a hard or expert level, and so far, those seem to require Porcelain Busts to be level 5 already. Perhaps being able to buy consumable items for 20-50 crowns would help alleviate that – we could sell our junk items and over time afford the better ones we need.

    My bigger complaint is that the game has become pretty frustrating overall, mostly due to the amount of resources and factories/space needed to complete the hard and expert maps.

    I was playing with a group of very skilled players (all of which I’ve played with before and done well) on a map earlier this week, and we ended up abandoning it after two days. I don’t recall which map it was, but it needed a Black Heart and Pink Flamingo. I spent 5 hours or so building just the Glowing Crown for it, and it took up most of my space (and those factories were clustered up pretty tight). While building it, I just kept getting irritated at how much more was required to go into it. Many steps required 3 or 4 complex items, of which were made by 3 or 4 other complex items each. It just got kind of ridiculous. By the time I was done, I was completely burnt out. I was further burnt out realizing just how much MORE was required to finish the map and how little space there was left over. Like I said, we were all skilled players and just ran out of room. So we quit, effectively wasting two days of working at the map. That didn’t feel good.

    Tempus and I had decided to quit playing after this, but ultimately changed our minds when we saw a 0-minute open LaDuraDura map was available. So we chose to give it a shot, and filled up the remaining 2 of 4 slots with our alt accounts (probably shouldnt admit this) so that we could control the whole map and not worry about inexperienced players or communication issues. It’s now 2 days later, and with millions in our account, we’re frustrated in trying to get these four statues made. We’re tight on space and what we do have is getting in there is slow. The Porcelain Busts have taken up a significant amount of stone on the map, as well as the space needed to import into the factory cluster. We’ve really only got two Glowing Sceptres and a Shadow Amulet left to build, but those alone take up so much space and so many factories and require stone that we are sending off to become busts. Tempus is optimistic that we can complete the map, but I’m less so. We clean up the easy and medium maps with 5 stars with no problem, usually just between the two of us, but hard and expert maps feel pretty impossible.

    I’m a long time player, playing regularly since around January, but recently, I’ve been pretty frustrated with the game. I generally like the direction it’s going (those, I do prefer the days of 2×2 and 3×3 accept-anything factories); I just feel like the game is getting kind of bogged down with the wrong kind of difficulty. It’s not “hard” to finish these maps, just time consuming and limited on space and resources. I found a greater challenge with the accept-anything factories. As JChris said, “allowing most shops to let the wrong good go by means that the challenge of routing is almost gone.” I don’t get a charge out of getting a complex recipe finished – I feel drained. I don’t feel like I accomplished anything that required my mind, just my time.

    You know how when you’re drawing, and you mess up something up, so you erase and retry, and erase and retry, and draw over the lines so they’re dark and your flaws are exaggerated and in the process of trying to make the drawing better, you just junked it up? That’s kind of how I feel Leapday is going. I understand you’re doing your best to make the best game possible and I don’t mean to criticize too hard. As an aspiring game designer myself, I respect SpryFox’s game design a great deal. The core game design of this, Panda Poet, and Triple Town blow me away, especially in terms of how simple they are, yet the emergent game play is so deep. I don’t mean to grovel, but I’m amazed and inspired by your work.

    Anyway, thanks for reading this. I wanted to share my experience playing the game lately without offering too many suggestions or complaints, so hopefully I pulled that off.

    #14823

    claudekennilol

    filled up the remaining 2 of 4 slots with our alt accounts (probably shouldnt admit this) so that we could control the whole map and not worry about inexperienced players or communication issues.

    Definitely shouldn’t have mentioned that. This is not a two player game and purposefully locking out others so you “don’t have to deal with other people” is just insulting. If you want to do with just the two of you then earn better/faster so you can do it while the rest try to help, wait til (if) they implement two player maps, or just go find a game to play that is for two players.

    -Silaero

    #14847

    Delha

    Hey Garm,

    I realize this reply is a bit late, but just in case you guys hadn’t gotten around to finishing DuraDura yet… My buddies and I (same crew from the Ye Dark Lorde game with you and Tempus) knocked out that map, I’m sure you two can as well. For us, the Porcelain Statue was far and away the most difficult part, due to the sheer volume of stone required.

    I ultimately ended up using massive train loops to ferry stone from the four corners of the earth, and I think around 8 brick factories to make sure they processed through quickly enough. It was incredibly gold inefficient, but knowing the income from a typical set up you guys put together, I doubt that will be an issue.

    @Silaero – Pfft. On any map of reasonable difficulty, it is outright impossible to prevent neighbors from claiming things you potentially need (eg shrines). So “go faster” isn’t even an option. Even if you could rush torches to claim all the necessary pieces and ensure access, that’s still exactly the sort of behavior you’ve complained about in the past. The other two options you’ve listed amount to “too bad, kick rocks”. So in other words, you feel they don’t have the right to play the game at all, because they’re not doing it your way. Pfft. What a worthless post. (Unless you were trolling, in which case I give you an 8/10.)

    #14851

    garmichael

    We did finally beat the map. It was frustrating, and one of the four didn’t have trains. It felt good to finish the map, but also felt tiring and draining. We have eachother’s passwords and so we’d take shifts logging into each of the four accounts taking care of stuff until we got frustrated. We ended up finishing the map on nearly the very last tile. I don’t think it would have been possible had we ‘played fair’ by letting strangers into the map as Silaero is complaining about. I saw that aftr 17 days that Mr Jones map got completed, but everyone had high-end items like catapults and stuff. It bothers me that having these items in either consumable form or infinite form act as a gatekeeper to finishing the hard/expert maps. Either way, we’re done with LaDuraDura (and didn’t get very good loot), and now we’re sort of just taking it easy.

    #14852

    Clinton

    I’m more with Silaero on this one.

    While I agree that the hard maps are hard, especially without upgraded recipes or advanced buildings, the game I want to play is multiplayer and cooperative.

    I agree it is a tedious to scrape up nearly every resource of a type on the torus for one boss item, and difficult to assemble anything big without some kind of train.

    That said;

    So long as you’ve got enough active, participating people to vote towers down if someone disappears, though, maps are as winnable (eventually) while still giving others the chance to play and succeed.

    With the limited nature of seats in maps, locking other players out assuming they’ll hinder you and just playing this multiplayer game with yourself with or a single friend seems a little selfish and pessimistic, no offense.

    #14854

    garmichael

    Us filling up a game with alt accounts is no different than a larger group of friends getting together and owning that same map. Filling a map has absolutely NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER ON YOUR GAME EXPERIENCE.

    We fill up the map, and you have another map to play, just like it’s designed. In fact, when we do this, you have a greater chance at joining a game that hasn’t yet started and having more time to get more stars and more loot.

    There is no shortage of maps to join where everyone else are strangers. For me, I’ve played enough maps in the last eight months with people who didn’t log in often, took territory and did nothing with it, wasted space and resources, hogged the minibosses, and so on, that I’m simply not interested in pretending to be “Leapday Che”, ensuring everyone gets a fair chance at fucking up my game experience.

    If you want to play multiplayer with people, no amount of filled maps is going to change that in any way possible. Get off yourselves.

    #14860

    qonen

    I’m enjoying the current expert maps. Dura Dura took a bit of work with ~L0 shoppes, but I like how there is some challenge and interaction to it now. On a map I won a few weeks ago, food seemed to be the most critical resource, but we were able to push through with a skilled group pick-up group. My only real issue with this map is that shields cannot be made unless all four players are participating. I wonder about bumping it back up to 5 players, although it would break the symmetry.

    More recently I managed to beat Jones, also with a pick-up team with ~L0 shoppes. There was not enough food mathematically, so we got more, but that seems more like a bug workaround rather than a gift. It took a lot of work, and it probably would not have been possible without fast trains and/or catapults in key locations. Routing and positioning problems were interesting to me, as well as path optimization. At no point did I feel like I was building too much or that it was tedious/mindless. A pink flamingo requires a crazy number of shoppes, but if you’re working on just one piece of the problem it isn’t so bad. I definitely would not want to do it with two (or few) players, because then it really would be tedious.

    Ye Dark Lorde still calls to me. I made one attempt at it, but only a few of the player spots were occupied, and we were not all active. I would like to try it again with a full team of folks willing to dedicate the time and effort required. I am not certain it can be solved in its current state with low-level shoppes, but I’m up for that kind of punishment. I appreciate that the challenge is there waiting, for when the time is right. If it did not exist or it is nerfed, there would not be much left new to do besides pounding stars.

    This all being said, there is a world of difference between Jones/Dark Lorde and other maps. In other maps, space and resources are not a big concern. Just make enough income to string together shoppes without much consideration for efficiency and be done. Need more of a resource? There is some unused over there. Run out of time? Just satisfy a sun shrine. It doesn’t work that way for Jones/Dark Lorde. Sun shrines are there too, but they mock you. If you cobble together a setup for a boss segment without a larger plan in mind, you’re likely making the whole task harder rather than working toward it.

    So, I have some concern that players that step up to the top-tier maps are mostly unprepared for what awaits them. The sequence of maps leading up to them encourage shoppe sprawl (build fast or get out of the way), but then suddenly great attention is put on efficiency (build smart or don’t bother). I’m not sure what to do to prepare new players, if anything. Within a few months when L5+ shoppes will be common and these maps will be farmed routinely and tediously, so L0 Jones/Dark Lorde will no longer be relevant. I guess that’s why I like maps as they are now (beyond some balance fixes). It feels like they are at the edge of what is possible, and that experience will go away soon.

    #14861

    claudekennilol

    Even if you could rush torches to claim all the necessary pieces and ensure access, that’s still exactly the sort of behavior you’ve complained about in the past. It is, if someone else can contribute, why not let them? Especially if they can contribute immediately (and willingly) unlike the person blocking off whatever is being blocked. Hence the multiplayer part of the game.

    Your comments here and negative attitude towards playing a cooperative game with other players makes me wonder why you even choose to play this game based off of cooperation.

    #14864

    ised8m

    Qonen, happy to tackle Ye Darke Lord with you anytime

    #14867

    Delha

    [What Garm said]
    This.

    @clinton: There’s a lot of holes in your argument. First, you need at least three active players. On DuraDura, the map in question, that means if more than a single person is slacking, you’re SOL. Second, you need consensus. I tend to be unwilling to nuke towers even if it makes things more difficult. I know there are other players out there less hesitant to do so, and fully recognize that I’ve probably frustrated some of them in the past by refusing to be the third needed vote. Third, you failed to address another key point: When shooting for a high star finish (which Garm/Tempus typically are), “winnable eventually” doesn’t cut it. The entire point is to complete the map quickly.

    @Silaero: You have absolutely zero understanding of attitude regarding cooperative games. My favorite Final Fantasy is Crystal Chronicles, specifically because of the incredibly cooperation-dependent mechanics. I’ve spent literally hours raving to friends about how awesome having one person contribute Fire and another Life to cast Holy and make a shadow boss solid so we could damage it. My favorite part of WoW was performance intensive group runs, where one person screwing up meant failure. I continued organizing and running Bear Club (our nickname for doing the ZG timed event) for months after I got my Amani Warbear. So you can take your ignorant judgement and cram it.

    Why would people want to lock out others? Simple. They want to play the game, not babysit someone else who is still learning the game. I’m perfectly happy to teach people. I’ve never deliberately declined a mentor game (even before they started giving rewards for doing so). I very much enjoy theorycrafting and very much enjoy sharing sharing my understanding of the game with others. But when I decide to put on my big boy pants and play a Real Game, I want to sit down with people on my level. At that point, I want partners, not apprentices.

    As qonen explained above, the top end maps are very unforgiving. The earlier levels are largely dictated by your gold pool, whereas Jones and Dark Lorde are dependent on layout efficiency. You are still working off the assumption that having heart is enough. And honestly, for any mid-to-low level map, it probably is. When people are pushing themselves towards higher goals though, heart is no longer a substitute for skill. On Sad Uncle, or Mistress, or Cougarina, I’ll agree. A weak player is unlikely to really be a problem (unless they claim a key shrine/altar then just sit on it). When attempting the most difficult maps or playing for a maximum-star completion though, that player is a liability. If I have to walk someone through fixing their incredibly slow shrine completion because it’s not actually generating wood/food/etc until the day is 75% over, that’s not cool (and I’ve seen it happen repeatedly).

    I’m all for letting people contribute. All I ask is that all my fellow princes pull their weight. Sadly, the game doesn’t filter players by skill (and it’s probably a bad call to fracture your player pool like that anyway, unless you’ve got a huge playerbase to start with).

    #14873

    claudekennilol

    But you’re not even giving the chance for other players to try and do the map with you. You don’t know whether you’re excluding skilled players or not because, as has already been admitted, you each brought in four princes and blocked out anyone before knowing whether or not anyone is good enough to help. You just assume that everyone isn’t up to your standards and are blocking others out of doing these high end maps because of the small player base. As you say the player base is small enough already, you’re only increasing how small it is by specifically removing yourselves from it.

    You claim you love cooperation in other games, yet here you specifically deny others–and yourself–the opportunity to cooperate. Your “claims of proof” literally mean nothing when you’re disproving yourself by displaying the exact opposite.

    #14885

    garmichael
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