This topic contains 46 replies, has 15 voices, and was last updated by Silverthorn 6 years ago.
September 12, 2013 at 12:33 pm #15062
Pretty sure we’re talking about the same game, the one who got the Fast Train mentioned that you and Garmichael were on the map where it dropped.September 12, 2013 at 1:05 pm #15065
Probably is then!September 16, 2013 at 8:37 pm #15174
Something I’ve been thinking about:
Major upgrades aren’t always major.
Take rings. As far as I can tell, they upgrade in a linear progression. There’s no reason to call level 5 a major upgrade when it’s the same improvement I got the last few times. It’s trivial, but it makes taking rings to level 5 look like more effort than it’s worth.September 17, 2013 at 2:36 pm #15186
Just so my post below make sense…. The names I use for the different recipe progression types when talking to my RL friends are below:
–Value – Increased income
–Simplify – Reduce material or factory requirements of production
–Ramp – Increased material cost, increased income
I can see what you mean, I definitely agree that it’s a bit counter-intuitive that recipes on a Value leveling track have major upgrades with yields in line with those before or after. The way I’ve started looking at all of these is from the perspective of gated progression. For stuff like Rings which don’t change the components at all, I pretty much look at L5 as just a minor hurdle to get over so I can keep using the inevitable golden goods to train rather than having to trash them.
That also kind of touches on my philosophy for what to level or not. I’ll level most Simplifies without question. For Values, if I use a particular recipe a lot, I’ll probably level it. My Ramps are probably going to stay largely untouched for a looong time.September 21, 2013 at 1:28 pm #15242
This morning I briefly looked in on a Dura map, where one brave player had been sitting all alone for twelve hours. I saw the ca. four dozen new shrines in the non-boss center, with no resources to fill any of them reasonably near, nevermind how much of a pain it would be to use more than two or maybe three for each resource.
I’m thinking that the previously mentioned line between “wow, that’s gonna be a good challenge” and “eff that, don’t even want to start” is still way too painfully crossed for a number of maps at the moment.
As such, I’d love to hear from anyone who has beaten a Twins, Dura, Cougarina or Lorde since this last big update and after the hotfixes, just to know whether it’s at all possible (with a preselected group, maybe?), and whether there’s anyone around who considers these a fun task at the moment.September 21, 2013 at 2:24 pm #15243
(Correction to be fair: It was just two dozen shrines, and there was a handful of resources near after all.)September 22, 2013 at 3:41 pm #15261
My group is currently in a DuraDura map, and we’re pretty close. That said, the last bit is going to be rough.
–Wood Statue is done.
–Chocolate Statue (is done.
–Porcelain Statue is mostly done.
–Ice Statue isn’t really started. We did a little messing around to count resources, but haven’t put any real work in on it yet.
What we’re really hoping for is a Wooden Statue to drop for Buteros, since that’s the last component he needs for Ice Statue 5. We’re overproducing on the Chocolate Statue now, but not quite halfway to a second bust, and we’d just as soon not bother activating the last 2 food shrines, since it’s annoying dealing with the excess wood/food currently flooding other production lines, and we’d rather not exacerbate that issue.
To finish the Porcelain Statue, we need to revise the Glowing Sceptre line to produce two instead of one. From there, we’ll be adjusting out layout to allow for injecting those straight into the main delivery line to hit both the Porcelain and Wood Statue factories. We also need to get the Wine of Joy line producing twice and split that out between the Wood and Ice Statues. We’ve got a rough plan in place for that, but I need to do some streamlining that hasn’t happened yet.
If we can get the Porcelain Statue to L5 as well (somewhat feasible), we will use the space and resources currently going into Rowboat on the Hair Elixir instead. With neither the Wood Statue or Porcelain statue successfully leveling to L5, things get a lot dicier.
We currently have 5 wood shrines up, 1 stone shrine, and 4 food shrines.
–Well all have probaly 60-80% of the Tier 1 recipes (Spirits/Ore/Spice/Lumber/etc) at 5. For any given one of those basics, 2 or 3 of us probably have it. None of us have any of them at 15 yet.
–We each probably have a few Tier 2 recipes at 5. For example, I’ve got Glass and Flour.
–Garble and I have Wood Bust 5, Flincae and I have Pbust 5. I think that’s it for busts.
–Nobody has a statue to 5 yet.
–Trains: We all have at either Normal or Hopping Trains. I think everyone but me has both, but not sure. I’m the only one with Fast Trains.
–Catapults: Garble and I only.
–Duplex/Haulers: I think most of us have Duplexes, nobobdy has Haulers.
Bottom Line: I think it is quite likely impossible for people without at least a handful of L5 recipes, and almost certainly impossible for people without at least Trains. In fairness, both can be accumulated over time by people who aren’t buying crowns, but I think it would be nice if all Expert maps had a warning upon that the they are potentially impossible to unprepared princes. I’d also suggest that the message very highly recommend that the player have all/most Tier 1 recipes at Level 5 and at least Normal Trains (and Track, obv).September 23, 2013 at 1:03 am #15267
Thanks for the comprehensive report and link, Delha, much better info than I was hoping for :)
I’ll keep observing to see if you guys win, but it seems quite likely, which is great. That L5 wood bust especially looks insanely helpful, and it’s looking like a pretty fun game between the four of you.
That there’s not much to do in hard/expert maps without trains isn’t all that new, and the quasi-requirement of a high number of levelled lowtier recipes doesn’t surprise me much (completely agreed that a warning message would be nice). I wonder how far you think your group would have gotten with no catapults and fast trains (seems like those two might be crucial for filling the shrines fast enough at least, if nothing else)?
I can also see so much going wrong there from the start without the right group. I don’t at all mind the existance of maps that absolutely require a group acting like a well-oiled machine, but being this dependent on matchmaking luck for every single hard/expert map to have a chance at winning at all, ugh. Not happy. That’s going into points already covered, though.
So yah, looks like the Dura is still feasible under certain conditions. Maybe there will be word about the other three eventually.September 23, 2013 at 11:16 pm #15288
A quick update: Buteros just got his second Pstat, so now he needs just the golden Mahna Mahna to get it to L5 and cut the Rowboat. Looks like we should be able to finish relatively cleanly after all.
FYI: We ended up forcing the drops, by having him contribute only gems to the statues, we minimized the chaff that he could potentially get. It works better on busts, but the principle is basically to produce only a single good to maximize the chances of it dropping. For example, if we wanted to get wood busts for Garble, one or more of us would work to provide all the fine lumber, then he’d put down just that factory and deliver to his castle, so that we was making literally only wood busts. To be honest, it probably would have made the level a lot more reasonable if we’d made sure each bust had at least 1 person with it at L15. The level might have been too easy at that point, hard to say.
Fast Trains: I think our current shrine activations could be acheived by using train loops in the right places instead of focusing on fast trains to deliver. Using multiple factories, or replacing certain lines with rail instead of path, I think the same timing could be reached w/out fast trains. To be honest, a lot of my setups are pretty sloppy right now, the fast trains just make me do less work for the same effect.
Catapults: I think these are a much bigger deal, but I suspect that a group with high enough recipes could probably simplify their production down to a point where they weren’t really necessary either. As I see it, all the simplify recipes help reduce infrastructure (be it placing fewer factories, or shrinking the resource delivery loops). Catapults are great for crossing a compact production area, and a smaller production footprint means it’s easier to get stuff around or through. I know there are certain situations where a catapult is pretty much the only answer, but I figure most of those can be worked around. It will quite possible a ton of trouble, but still doable.
Groups: Totally agree that one deadbeet player on this map would suck a lot. Without literally everyone on the map cooperating (at least a little), it’s flat out impossible to make shields. With only 3 players, porcelain and wood statues at L15 become mandatory (since that’s the point where each no longer requires shield-based goods).September 26, 2013 at 11:16 am #15499
Aaaand, final update. We completed this last night. The map got a stealth nerf in the form of all shrines except wood producing 3 additional raw resources instead of 1 additional. We decided to activate a few water shrines and were blown away when a disposal loop with capacity for 10 water filled up completely and the primary line still flooded. The change forced a great deal of reworking, but obviously made the map easier overall. I’m not certain if this was triggered by hitting 1 star, or if it was a change to the map across the board.
That said, after having seen what it takes to complete the map even WITH the mid-game nerf, I’m not certain we would have been able to finish without it.
I would say that having at least two tiers of statue simplification (plus at least 1 tier of simplification in the earlier stages of wood, ice, and porcelain) is pretty much mandatory. We had IceStat 5 and PorcStatue 5 (and Oak 5, WoodBust 5, PorcBust 5, IceBust 5), but I could see it being done with say, WoodStat 15 and the other statues at L0. Since we had two lower tier WoodStat simplifications, we ended up overproducing by a full bust. I figure WoodBust 5 is enough even without Oak 5.
Before the shrine change, I think producing a second ChocoBust for the Ice Statue would have been incredibly difficult. After the change, it might not be so bad. That said, cutting the Rowboat was absolutely huge. I’m not saying it would be impossible, but given the resources and space available, I’m sure producing Hair Elixir would have been incredibly difficult to do while keeping Rowboats up. For a group with less coordination or less loot, I’d probably recommend having at least three tiers of simplification among the statues (in addition to the lower level simplifications mentioned prior). The only statue that doesn’t need any simplification is Chocolate, since it’s easy from the start. Even there, Bread 15 wouldn’t hurt.
At game end, we had the following active:
1x Stone Shrine (+3 stone)
2x Water Shrine (+6 water)
1x Food Shrine (+3 food)
5x Wood Shrine (+5 wood)
It might be possible to do a game run where you deliberately trigger all shrines to make the busts practically a nonissue, and enable mass production of key goods. That said, I’m not certain how effective that would be in the end. One of the big ways to create compact production lines is by having a loop between two factories and feeding raw resources into there (so the flan feed factory 1, collect the output and deliver to factory 2). This sort of setup is vulnerable to flooding, where the flan all stay full and thus never pick up the output. Having nodes that produce 15-20 of a given resource will make that happen more often. I expect that this approach would necessitate segregation of input and output loops for a given factory.
I think the real benefit comes from the infrastructure reduction on statues, since you should be able to have a rather compact harvesting + production area, as compared to the more typical layout with a handful of factories being fed by a ton of guys trucking in raw materials from the four corners of the earth.
Catapults and Fast Trains proved absolutely critical. I still stand by my belief that strong enough recipe progress can remove this need, but the point where I figure that breakpoint lies has definitely increased. My offhand guess is that it probably requires several L15 recipes.September 26, 2013 at 11:42 am #15503
Glad this worked out! Shrines do indeed give more resources now. We did the calculation for adding extra resources to the map and found that there simply wasn’t enough room. :-) So Shrines it is.September 26, 2013 at 11:58 am #15504
Good to know, thanks for the info.October 5, 2013 at 5:16 pm #15962
I would like to humbly request food shrine(s) be added to the Twins map. There are currently none.
The amount of food required has at least quadrupled with the last update, with choco busts now requiring twice as much food, and a second choco bust being needed for the ice statue. I wouldn’t know if this map has actually been beaten since then, but my guess is no – feel free to correct me if I’m mistaken.
A group I’m in is currently making an attempt, but half of us don’t even have more than two or three berry bushes in our respective territories. We haven’t counted it out so far, but despite level 5 ice statue being available to us, which cuts out the second choco bust, it looks to be far too close a call.October 5, 2013 at 5:24 pm #15963
(And then there’s the sun ritual shrine on that map that requires a substantial amount of food – we have to have a chance at using it from a resources point of view, at least, right?)October 6, 2013 at 3:36 am #15977
Okay, the count is done.
With all basic recipes at level 5 + ice statue at level 5, we need 211 food on that map, ie 106 berry bushes.
It appears we have exactly 106 berry bushes on the map.
So we have to utilize every last berry, have no chance at the sun ritual shrine, and if we didn’t have someone with ice statue at level 5, the map would be impossible to complete.
Please save the future generations ;)
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