This topic contains 15 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  Raijinili 5 years, 9 months ago.

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  • #17814

    impronoucabl

    I’ve been experimenting on hybrid armies for a while now, & I’d like to offer some information about what I’ve found so far, as well as offer a few ideas. I know I’ve mentioned hybrid cities in the past, those points still stand, but now I’m looking more in-depth at the units.

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    General Feedback

    If at all possible, a 1 cost 2 recruit unit is greatly needed. Especially after the Duig nerf, but it doesn’t have to a wood unit. I recommend Crystal. (alternatively, you could get it to cost 1 of 2 resources, like the Jiast, Mull & Qit)

    Mull & Qit are far too strong compared with Jiast, they can be run as pseudo-Slog/Johnn/Roth, when Jiast cannot. Additionally, Mull & Qit can “bank” a resource type with windfall units (& then start producing the other resource). A Gold-crystal windfall unit *might* solve this problem.

    Aside from Xane & Caylish, all the costs for hybrid late-game units are ~50/50 of each resource, so either they are overpriced, or under powered. E.g Getting 6W + 6C is harder than 12W or 12C, but 3G + 1W isn’t that different from 4G (still harder)

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    Gold – Crystal

    Probably the best supported hybrid army right now is are the wizard-acolytes armies. However, when I do play this army, it feels pretty much the same as normal wizards + Jimein/commander; There isn’t a great benefit gained by adding gold. You lose your protected (ie Doro, etc) economy (not to mention the 1 recruit) and you don’t really gain any additional attack power. You do get a little more fireball late-game, but it’s much harder to fend off rushes.

    The biggest problem about Gold-Crystal is that if you’re not going acolytes, there’s not much late-game strategy exclusive to Gold-crystal hybrid units. Taro is nice, but when you rush, it is very difficult to get both 4G & 5C, especially with gold-crystal’s hybrid production units.

    Possible new directions:
    – A goldcentric acolyte-wizard army?
    – Support for gold-crystal farmers?

    Things to be “fixed”:
    – Jiast could be a rat & produce one or the other type of resource like the other 2 rats. I think he should keep his royalty though, it synergizes very well with Celina.
    – A Crystal “Drion” equivalent would be nice. (I.e produces 4 gold for 7 crystal)

    Other changes I’d reccomend:
    – Get Bin to produce 2 crystal instead of Hagel. Its better to hire someone 50% of the time, than to be 1 resource off every time.
    – Get Lyon to cost 1C. Hiro isn’t much use either, but at least barbarian armies can still use him.

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    Gold-Wood

    Hilariously enough, Gold-Wood seems to be the “real” faction with either a strong earlygame, or strong lategame, not Wood. This hybrid faction has the most explosive economy, purely dependent on the 1st draw or so. I’ve seen armies like quicksilver’s which are also very strong early on, but lack late-game. If I’d recommend anything, it’d be the opposite of gold-crystal, get some combined producers out there. It is most annoying setting your Mulls to produce gold, only to draw Kren(s).

    New directions:
    – An obscene monster that costs 15G + 15W (judging from the commander leveling details, the front could be along the lines of 19 attack, 5 defense. I’m guessing his back would include frail) (gotta do SOMETHING with that monster of an economy. 2 Spikes & a Blight don’t cut it for me.)
    – An archer lord? (As opposed to assassin; Unwound-able assassins don’t win games, they make them take forever)
    – I’ve yet to see a soldier/ dog army. I think it just needs a hybrid unit to tie the knot.

    Things to be “fixed”:
    – As mentioned above, Caylish doesn’t quite fit here. Additionally, he has spearhead, when Tavi & Jeremiah both have rampage.
    – This economy acts very interdependently from it-self, it is abusing strong gold-only/wood-only producers for gold/wood; similar to having the economies to two different armies in one, on top of each other. Drion helps, but I recommend further support.

    Other changes:
    – Drion should have 5 Wood, but I’m unsure how that may affect only-gold armies.

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    Crystal-Wood

    This hybrid faction is in the worst state so far.It is probably due to the relative age of both the crystal & wood factions, being newer than gold, but I don’t see any support beyond Qit. There are a few possibilities, none close to viable at the moment. Considering how both factions are supposed to be strongest lategame, Melvar & Xane are both very underwhelming. Wood has weak mid-game production, Crystal has weak early-game production. It would be best if they could overlap the strong early-game production wood has, with the safer production Crystal has mid-game.

    Possible Directions:
    – Wolves/ hunters. Grey was nice. How about some more? Foxes & dogs too?
    – Rats/Wisps, totem/Harvesters unite these please. Then add a lord with surge(like Gaeis)
    – A Forest golem would be interesting. So would a Forest skeleton. (just imagine)

    Things to “Fix”:
    – Xane – make him cost 4C to be a better producer, otherwise, let him do more damage.
    – Melvar – give his front some work, maybe 7/8 attack.
    – Production in general. Unlike Wood-Gold production, using Qit early for wood screws your crystal economy, & vice versa.

    Other changes:
    – Perhaps give Gorg 3 recruit?

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    • This topic was modified 5 years, 10 months ago by  impronoucabl.
    #17822

    lengthyusername

    You forgot the biggest problem with hybrids: The Helm is terrible. A crystal-oriented G/C hybrid will get wizards out before acolytes, and those wizards can still burn through their opponent’s army. Even worse, crystal has Celina, so they can get some zealot damage without any gold. A gold-oriented G/C hybrid will get acolytes out before wizards, but even that won’t be helpful since acolytes can’t deal much damage without wizards. Gold used to be able to get a strong crystal economy through acolytes, but Lare and Jade have hybrid costs now, so now they need to get crystal elsewhere before they can do that.

    Early game, The Helm has Bin and Hagel available to it. Crystal Camp has Gage and Mana. Mana is better at focusing on a single resource than Hagel is. An early front row Bin will have a mere 1 attack, while an early front row Gage will have steal as early as turn 1. The only real advantages The Helm have are Tally, Hiro, and Lyon. Tally is probably better off ignoring the crystal part of the economy, and Hiro and Lyon only cost 1 resource each, so Crystal Camp and Shadow Pylon can still easily use them. Obviously, making Lyon cost crystal doesn’t help The Helm any. I don’t see how taking away Hagel’s 2 crystal helps anything.

    If anything is done to help G/C hybrids, getting a crystal economy from gold needs to be first. From there, they need a wizard that costs gold or something similar to what Celina does for crystal.

    C/W has plenty of support. Foxes, Dogs, and Wolves all have at least one crystal unit that will help the pack ability (Jion, Craun, Lyss). Crystal has a lot off arrow and drain, and wood is the only faction with reaper. A lot of wood units have dormant or burnout, which helps crystal with cascading burnout. Mox and Ozgo exist. Maximizing Xane’s attack might not be worthwhile all the time, but its maximum damage output matches Ink’s. Generating 5 resources for a cost of 8 isn’t bad either.

    For the record, gold isn’t older than crystal. Both factions have been around since the beginning of the game.

    #17823

    impronoucabl

    Here are my thoughts:

    1. The helm is underwhelming I agree. It would be fixed would the “gold-centric” acolyte/wizard army, right now, it’s more crystal than gold imo.

    2. Turn 1 Bin is not used for attacking (not sure how that came up), it would generate 1 gold & 1 crystal. Both cities can just use Jiast for that though.

    3. Taking away Hagel’s 2 crystal is not what I intended to suggest, I think it would be better if Bin had the 2 crystal, so I can avoid using Hagel in a Wizard/acolyte army (He is neither).

    4. Screwing your economy for ONE unit is what I’d call not enough support. You’d simply be better off without it. For that one pack unit, you’d have to invest in production of 5 crystal just for that unit. (Also, Not sure how Jion helps with packs.) Best case scenario, you use 2 Qits at the front on the turn you just “happen” to draw the pack unit. You are still down 1 recruit for the entire game.

    5. Costs are like vectors, 2+2 does not necessarily = 4. As I’ve said earlier, it will be harder to produce, as it will probably take 1/2 turns extra to play, compared with the normal 8 cost units. This means the opportunity to play the hybrid unit at the usual timing is fairly rare, & it should be compensated for. Late-game, hybrid costs become another way for your opponent to take down your economy.

    6. Crystal isn’t new than gold? News for me!

    We’ll see what the devs makes of this.

    #17824

    Raijinili

    Devs don’t respond much in this forum.

    *reverses psychology*

    #17825

    lengthyusername

    2. The point was, Gage’s front row is better than Bin’s front row, making Gage an overall better unit. Both produce 1 gold and 1 crystal in the back. While Gage’s front ability is good, making it useful in either row, Bin’s is terrible early game, restricting it to back row only.

    3. You’re really not going to use Hagel in a wizard/acolyte army if he costs 2 and only produces 1 resource each turn.

    4. Tempest, not Jion. My bad.

    If that one unit is the only unit of your secondary resource that you plan to play, yes, it’ll be entirely not worth it and you shouldn’t bother. If you have more than one, it can be worthwhile. You don’t have to only use units that improve the pack ability. The ones with built in support are just easier to use.

    #17851

    impronoucabl

    I just thought up a few more points about hybrid economy. Thanks lenghyusername for getting this train of thought started.

    First is the recruit vs resource choice of city; Either the appropriate hybrid city, or Shadow pylon.
    To be blunt, 3 recruit is not enough to play 95% of all armies properly, including single faction armies. This can be avoided by using the shadow pylon, but that prevents the use of 2 costs units on turn 1 (Such as Remi), except for the Mull, Qit & Jiast. Now, that’s not a bad start, but it is restrictive; costs are balanced so that generally, 4 costs are playable on turn 2, & 8 costs are playable on turn 3. With the shadow pylon, disbanding your production is required to match that. In essence, you start half a turn behind.

    Second is to do with army construction. (See https://spryfox.com/forums/topic/army-building-tips-ver-2-0/ for details)
    In a normal army, production takes up at most 1/3 of an army. In a hybrid army, if you are not rushing, it can take up to 90% of your army (to hire non-hybrid units reliably). On average I’d guess the figure is closer to 60% but still, by using a late-game oriented hybrid army, you’d have to either inflate your army size (which makes you need to recruit even more) , or make do with weaker units (ie the current hybrid units). Neither are good options.

    As I suggested before, “an obscene monster that costs 15G + 15W” would definitely help.

    Lastly is the point I forgot to write up about steal. Steal is surprisingly strong against hybrid factions, but not just because they can steal crystal(/gold). A typical turn 3 for a hybrid army is the top 2 rows full of producers. Berna comes out on turn 3 with 2 steal, & resets the game for you. Yes it is possible to play around it by putting all your units @ the front or back, but aside from Gold-crystal(ironically enough, has the steal to counter steal T.T) most other factions can’t do this and maintain hybrid production (if at all).

    @lenghtyusername I don’t want to use Hagel (as he is now) in the first place, but I have to, for the crystal production. I’d rather have Bin do it instead.

    #17871

    Raijinili

    front 3c Hagel plz

    #17873

    ScottBrodie

    Hey everyone, thank you for the playtest notes! Solutions to make hybrid decks/cities more competitive is on my radar.

    #17884

    SPH

    <3

    #17888

    Raijinili

    No, but seriously, cross-resource resource-primary early units that give more than they cost could make for a good experiment. 3 for 2$ and 4 for 3$.

    Mana is useful in its own right, but Hagel giving 3 crystal would help tilt the balance toward The Helm.

    Maybe a Coward mechanic, like negative defense if attacked…

    #17889

    impronoucabl

    No, the cheap cross production can’t cost only 1 *type* of resource, otherwise, everyone would use Titan ridge & still go crystal. So then Hagel would have to cost 2G + 1C, to produce 3 crystal @ front & 2 gold @ back (keep the defense)?

    Mana is what allows Dwila/Crystal Camp to use acolytes with very little investment into gold, assuming you’re using them for late-game only. There is no benefit to invest in gold for this faction’s earlygame, aside from rushing.

    #17890

    Raijinili

    > No, the cheap cross production can’t cost only 1 *type* of resource, otherwise, everyone would use Titan ridge & still go crystal.

    I see no problem with people doing that. It’d be another option.

    But if there were strong multi-resource recruitment support, I don’t think people would JUST use Titan Ridge for Gold/Crystal hybrid.

    #17892

    impronoucabl

    True enough. I’ll wait till we get that 1 cost 2 recruit unit.

    #17893

    Raijinili

    I was thinking more 1/1 cost 3 recruit.

    #17894

    impronoucabl

    that works too.

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