This topic contains 68 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by azuckuss 6 years, 2 months ago.
July 30, 2013 at 2:10 pm #13614
So far I like the update. Here are my reasons:
1) Shrines – I think it is neat that they activate in the middle of the day. I agree that it adds an interesting layer where it is important not to just activate the shrine, but that the benefits are greater the earlier in the day you do so. I don’t see the +1 shrines breaking setups as a big problem. In a recent pre-patch game, a player built and activated +1 water altars (from the vault), which I thought for sure would break setups around the world, but it did not. That buff was a complete surprise, but now we see the shrines available. So- if you see a shrine around that would affect your build, plan for it. At most an option could be added for players to opt-out, but I think a large part of the problem is us not being used to the new model. As a side benefit, global shrines seem like a great way for a late player to get up to speed quickly.
2) Special items – I like having access to all the special buildings now. Before I had crowns and could have bought them, but I hated the idea of feeding games single-use items that while fun to use were not necessary. Now I can buy my favorite items once and not feed bad about consuming them. I’ll probably end up buying them all to the tune of several thousand crowns, whereas I never bought a single booster pack or limited-use item in the past. Additionally, I think it is great that free-to-play players have some access to them. I never figured out how to effectively use a carousel crane, so I never would have bought them. Now I’ll have a chance to experiment with them, so I might learn their power!
3) Wood paths/tracks – Not having access to them after having played several games did feel unusual. However, after giving it some thought I bought several other items before wood paths which seemed more important. As an aside, one of the more important items was a stout tower! I still have yet to buy tracks/trains among my games because they haven’t been needed. I think many of us are spoiled with trains and overuse them to the point of paying way too much gold. I think it is great that new players will be encouraged to think with paths for awhile. That being said it probably would be good to give free-to-play players a path to eventually getting unlimited trains.
4) Loot – I wonder what loot exists (if any) for players that have already purchased unlimited versions of items. Perhaps interesting loot-only items still exist? Anyway, I wonder if it would be practical to allow players to sell back one-use loot that they don’t need or want for a few crowns. This would allow players that have already purchased stuff from the market to get some award for finishing a map, and it would allow players that want to buy unlimited versions in a vault a mechanism to save toward them.
5) Recipes – I am low level, so I haven’t experienced new higher level crafting yet, but I like what I see. Before I thought that junk-producing shoppes would be meaningless unless applied to lower tiers. Now I see that in fact it does apply to some low-tier recipes! If I understand how it works, making Mana will be a bigger challenge than ever before (not a bad thing)! I worry about upgrading recipes to the point of changing them, though. I wonder about allowing lower level recipes, should they be needed. Other changes are welcome too, like reducing stacking. Thanks!
6) Map generation algorithm – Nice work. Before it was quite difficult to build in forests, but now it feels like there is more space. Similarly, because there are more resources around, building in non-forest areas takes some thought. Before it seemed like making complex items just meant filling in large void areas with a swath of shoppes. It was too easy. Now placement feels like it will play a greater element. While strip-mining produces strong income compared to before, it feels like there is still great benefit to crafting (especially once upgraded).
A) I’ll go further than suggest unlimited items don’t produce a warning when added from the vault. Perhaps unlimited items should be added automatically at the start of a game, or whenever you buy one. They can always be removed if necessary.
B) I agree that recipes should be sorted or even hidden in list view. Maybe let players click through the whole tree if they want, but put only available (or soon to be unlocked) recipes in list view. I wonder about giving some XP the first time an item is crafted. This would allow strong players (or experienced players on a new heir)
C) Being able to choose lower recipe variations after upgrading.July 30, 2013 at 7:07 pm #13625
Qonen, I think you will find that when you reach more difficult levels, trains are an absolute must. You will pretty much inevitably reach a situation where the ability to pass resources without picking them up and the speed at which they move becomes absolutely critical.July 31, 2013 at 6:36 am #13634
I agree that playing without trains on an easier map was a nice change of pace, but I have to agree with Delha. I haven’t done an expert boss in the new system yet,but I can’t imagine doing one without trains. I know it’s not “Pay-to-win”, strictly speaking, but it seems like it’s going to be “Pay-to-not-be-a-useless-lump-who’s-dragging-down-the-rest-of-the-team” :-p
My first impression was mostly positive, though. I like the new recipes (especially the “Full House” ones), and the curses are pretty neat.
I don’t understand the upgrade system, really. It seems like a lot of the upgrades are still undone?
The curse totems need to be more visible. I missed them entirely my first game — they’re gray and hiding behind thunderclouds.July 31, 2013 at 7:03 am #13636
Okay, another complaint now. Because of no trains and the ability to bypass unneeded goods, it’s much harder to complete the towers in the center if there’s a good right next to the tower that can’t be avoided. In my scenario, there were rocks right next to the tower almost completely unavoidable. So I can’t put a train to avoid it. fine. So I go to put a brick shop down, but that only takes one at a time. Since I’m in the middle of the map with no way to sell it, I’m forced to place a 2×2 road at the output and three houses to pick up enough of the goods for the flan to be able to circle near the tower without holding on to stone. What a waste. Basically, I don’t have the choices available to make eloquent solutions as I did before so it’s fun, it’s just aggravating.
Also, My neighbor is making the good for the tower. But he couldn’t reach it. So I came in and filled the gap. But I get absolutely nothing for it, other than helping the map be completed sooner–which at this point I don’t even want to do because I don’t get crowns which are needed to get back the stuff we shouldn’t have had taken away from us. So really I have absolutely no incentive to trade with my neighbor in this particular case because I can just make the good myself. But I’m a good-natured person so I do it anyways because I don’t want to be a jerk since he already went through the trouble of making it even though it doesn’t help me at all.July 31, 2013 at 7:18 am #13637
Yeah, I experienced this in my first game as well… No one is trying to trade any more. Everyone just wants to come to the boss to clear as much totems themselves.
This used to be a fun, CO-OPERATIVE GAME, and now it is all competition!! What the hell? If I wanted to compete with someone, I would go play an FPS, or RTS or something that is not Leap day! Reason I got so fond of Leap Day is the fact that there is no PvP in any way. Until now that is. Of course, you can’t fight, but people are trying their best to block off their neighbors and defeat the boss, if possible, by themselves, to get most prizes. That is a PvP if you ask me, it is just camouflaged!!July 31, 2013 at 1:03 pm #13643
Everyone just wants to come to the boss to clear as much totems themselves.
I go for the ice towers because that’s how we win. The faster we win, the more often I can start a map. And I presume that everybody gets the same experience for a win in a given time, regardless of how many towers they hit, so the faster we win, the faster we level up. And I think faster wins mean more XP in and of themselves.
As a point of information, fichom, have you ended a game without doing anything for the boss? I haven’t, so I don’t know if not contributing to the win means not getting a plan. If not contributing cuts people off from getting the plan, that’s one thing. But if getting cut off doesn’t affect what you get at the end of the map, your complaint about Leap Day being PvP doesn’t hold up.July 31, 2013 at 1:44 pm #13646
It’s not fun to not help. That’s his point. It shouldn’t be a mad rush to the center. It should be a cooperation of getting to the center and helping to complete the game. If I’ve spent my time in a map, I should get to help.
It used to be that contributing towards towers increased your experience. Now it appears it’s solely whether or not you get any new stars + completing the map. It’s just a mad rush to the center to level up faster. And it’s not fun when you’ve been waiting for days to contribute and then you log in and see that everyone has sold off all of their production and made a mad dash for the center to finish the towers and move on. Production income still needs to count towards experience gain. Trading even moreso–like it was before.
Fichom is right. This game is less cooperative than it was before the update. It’s like playing <insert team sport here> and you don’t get to touch the ball because your team can win without you. At that point what’s the point of playing?July 31, 2013 at 1:52 pm #13649
I have really enjoyed playing this game for the last few weeks, and I am interested in seeing how it progresses. I like the concept of unlocking shops, especially since it won’t take long to level up to unlock them all. And I think the shops that produce junk will be an interesting challenge when I get to them.
I have been disheartened by how long it takes to make decent money, but even that I can handle. What I don’t like, though, is the absence of trains. I am not upset by the “we used to have it and now we don’t” part, I just think that most maps/shops are extremely difficult or near impossible without trains. In the two maps I have played with the new update, I have been severely hindered by not having trains. I understand that I can purchase them, but I don’t like having to pay real money for something I feel is very fundamental to being productive in game.
I also really hate the new trade system. It just makes trading more hassle than it’s worth early on, especially when I have to purposefully build towards a neighbor to trade – it takes way too long to get the money back from the fire tower(s) necessary. I can understand the desire to make the “finance” more realistic (in real life, good A + good B does not give the owners of both A and B the sale price of AB each…I get that) but it just kills the feel of cooperation. @claudekennilol and I always tried to be neighbors before because it was fun to build towards each other and trade early on – now it just costs more than it makes and leaves one of us feeling cheated when we make barely any money.
I really hope some of these things get worked out. I have greatly enjoyed the game, and I would like to continue playing, but I think I would get too frustrated if trade and trains remain as they are now…July 31, 2013 at 5:26 pm #13669
Appreciate these comments. We need to tune the early leveling a bit so you feel a sense of plenty earlier. I’m also going to take a look at trade benefits and other cooperation incentives.July 31, 2013 at 5:36 pm #13670
If I’ve spent my time in a map, I should get to help.
…it’s not fun when you’ve been waiting for days to contribute…
I agree that you should get to help. On the other hand, waiting for days? Days? If my setup hasn’t changed in twelve hours, whether by building fire towers towards the boss, or upgrading my income, or both, then I’m either waiting on somebody to finish their part, or I’m lying in bed with the Martian Death Flu.
What do you do to end up waiting for days?July 31, 2013 at 6:35 pm #13673
I have a few comments, mostly points for improvement though overall I like the direction of the changes. It’s brave of you to change so much, but hey it’s a beta and we all signed up for this. Hats off to the devs for making a game that arouses so much passion!
a) it rarely feels worth the effort to try for a clever build early on. sucking up raw resources is much easier and often seems more profitable. even up to mid game it feels like ambition is punished. of course I’m still in early levels (currently 14, 3rd game since the reset). maybe upgrading recipes will open more satisfying possibilities, but that’s opaque right now. without visibility of how recipe upgrades affect the overall build tree, I’ve no idea where to specialise
b) 3×3 shoppes hog a lot of space, feels frustrating especially in the cramped starting area. I would have thought it better for the early game to feel simpler and have complexity build as the game develops
I wouldn’t mind not starting with rails etc, if it was easier to see how to get them as single-use items – and/or if I could grind currency for permanent plans. Having already spent money in the game, I feel a bit cheated that my current crown total (with some reimbursement on the reset) is only enough to buy trains, tracks and wood paths – all of which were unlimited free items before. I’ve had good times playing, so I’m not too sore, but I would be more likely to spend again if I felt the game was giving me some of the good stuff just for playing.
I wouldn’t call the recipedia awful, but it needs work: a back button at least. ideally a tree view like Zerack’s recipedia plus
Single-use plans as rewards feels arbitrary without knowing what reward comes with what map, and when the choice of games to join is so small. bear in mind I don’t want to join a game that’s already a day old, because the top victory conditions may be unattainable, and anyway I’ll be behind and out of the action
I’d suggest it’s better to give a currency reward that can be used to buy single-use plans, or save up for permanents
I love the *idea* of the shrines, but so far haven’t found a compelling situation for using them. they are too hard to complete to be useful in the early game (shame, that would be a nice skill challenge) and feel irrelevant later on. maybe they’ll come into their own when the boss altars get harder?
I haven’t experimented enough with trading yet, but if it’s harder and less rewarding to collaborate (and it does feel that way so far), that’s definitely a retrograde step
I miss phone boxes. world chat is great, but stuff gets lost in a single chat stream. you can’t beat leaving a message (or holding a short discussion) visibly anchored in the world
@fichom Everyone just wants to come to the boss to clear as much totems themselves
this in my experience has plagued the game since the beta first opened. you’re lucky if you’ve been regularly getting games without some players blocking others out. it’s not helped by the fact that it’s hard to get a full complement of players all starting within a few hours.
this is why my #1 request is better game search and scheduling tools. I want to start a game with players I know and respect, at a similar time so we have a shot at 4 stars. and I’d love some kind of in-game tool to help visualise and plan when to be online together.
August 1, 2013 at 7:19 am #13684
- This reply was modified 6 years, 2 months ago by higekun1. Reason: formatting
<i>What do you do to end up waiting for days?</i> I didn’t mean “days to contribute” as in ‘I’ve been doing nothing for the game’. I meant it as in I’ve been working at this map for days and know we’ll finish it tomorrow, but everyone else is on a different schedule/timezone and woke up earlier than I did and sold off everything to sprint to the center.
And I agree with higekun1 about feeling cheated at having to buy what was previously free. I was to the point where I would have gladly spent money on these other buildings I’ve never had a chance to use (especially now that unlimited use ones can be bought), but now after knowing I’d have to buy what was already free, I don’t feel like it’s worth spending the money at all.
Again, I know it appears I’m being overly critical, overall, but that’s just because I enjoy playing this game and want to continue enjoying to play it. I know I’ve played with some of these guys in game and we’ve had these conversations there, too. There are those that agree with me and those that don’t. From what I’ve seen, the ones that disagree with me (and obviously I’m probably over-generalizing) are the ones that have already bought back what was free.
I talked with one guy in game that said he’d played with a dev that stated something along the lines of “slow roads, train tracks, and train houses should drop pretty regularly” so his counter point was that I could play with them if I want to without having to pay for them <without paying for them>. Well, I didn’t have to pay for them before and I could use them every game. We only get one item per game, so if I get one of those every game I play (and none of the other items that I’m actually excited to try out) then I could play one out of three games in the manner that I was trained up to play (lol, “trained up”–pun not intended).
So I guess the specific thing that bothers me the most about this aspect is that I want to get the new stuff that I get to try and like, but feel I’m forced to spend my hard earned crowns (that I’m not even earning, which I say is wrong) on the “basics” (because that’s how I was trained to play) before I can get any of the new items.
ugh. and the level was just (and I do mean just) finished without me again because I chose to log on to the forums instead of the game..
and the three people that made it to the center were ones with extra buildings to build. Even though I was making the most money when I logged out last night, it didn’t make a difference that I had more money, and I was not rewarded for it with extra xp like I was before. Extra buildings to build is just too good because they can distribute the cost of expanding between roads/slow roads/ trains.
August 1, 2013 at 9:24 am #13693
- This reply was modified 6 years, 2 months ago by claudekennilol.
Another idea: Make wood roads and trains back into base items again, but make a new curse: ” no trains allowed”. I think this would allow for some fun variety, where a certain ghost could only be defeated without anybody using trains (or stone roads, etc).August 1, 2013 at 9:25 am #13694
@claudekennilol I think some of what you’re seeing is that advanced players are forced temporarily to go back and play easy maps. I had to play a Sad Uncle recently, which was, like, this is silly, let’s get this over with as quickly as possible. But for Mr. Jones, you can be sure that there will be no center-rushing because we need everyone to chip in and help.August 1, 2013 at 12:56 pm #13705
Yeah, I’m definitely aware of that. I might not be as advanced as some, but when I’m the one making the most money on the map, I expect to be able to do something with it when I wake up in the morning. Not only that, I should be somehow rewarded for being able to make a lot of money in the limited starting area with only one or two towers. Like before, some of the xp you got at the end of the map was based off of how much you produced and how much you were trading. Now the xp appears to be based solely off of a static amount plus bonuses for hitting new timed stars that you hadn’t yet earned.
That’s the point I’m trying to make–that I’m doing really well and get double penalized because it doesn’t matter that I was doing well (no reward for income) and the maps are being finished without me because of time differences. Obviously the latter can’t be helped as these are still easy maps, but it wouldn’t hurt as much if the former were re-implemented.
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