This topic contains 20 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by Delha 6 years, 4 months ago.
June 10, 2013 at 9:45 am #11622
Maybe I just rolled a really bad start, but with 2 stone, 2 berries, and 8+ waters – every attempt to play intelligently has actually ended up with less income than a 2 stage blender.
The recipedia goes too deep now for it to make enough sense to do any serious planning.
You stated that part of the goal of this major change was to remove the ? materials. Why? I didn’t think there was anything wrong with requiring feeding some extra garbage into a 3 port recipe – in fact, it helped me consume all the resources in an area.
Are you all even considering rolling back to the 3/5 port factory? I keep checking in on the forums hoping to see a rollback, but if you’re never going to do that, then I’ll just stop bothering you.
The challenge of routing for 3/5 ports was fun. The challenge of having to route a really deep chain of factories isn’t any fun. This game is a fun version of place and route for silicon chips – except there are 1.5 layers. Previously, the maximum number of factories in a chain was really 3-4 with some few ridiculous ones of 5-6. With this extra depth, the routing just cannot be done reasonably on 1.5 layers, and if it can be done, it’s best left to SW to do it, not asking a person to do it. This deep 2 port factory mechanic isn’t fun.June 10, 2013 at 12:53 pm #11636
In one of my games, I also had a mix of stone, food, and water, and I struggled to do something useful with it. I spent awhile clicking through the in-game recipedia trying to find something to craft, but the best thing I could find was mulled wine. I didn’t have a enough of a particular basic good to justify stacking, so I just made a one-stage blender. Later it took me only moments to confirm that there were no good things to craft without wood with Ezra’s spreadsheet and Zerack’s site. On the other side, if someone started without food, they could make a mighty gunship! Some thoughts:
1) Recipes feel a bit too dependent on wood. I like diversity in starts, so I don’t think the right answer is scattering all resources everywhere. Stone seems to be scattered, so it is safe to scatter in recipes. Nearly all areas have access to water too (although in varying amounts), so it also seems safe to scatter in recipes. So, there is a need for food-absent and wood-absent recipes. We have the former, but not the latter.
2) Starts are slower now than they were before. Despite comments to the contrary, I think this is a good thing! Previously I would often start with 1500-3000 which is nearly enough to engage the boss in 2 days, potentially blocking anyone that joined after the first day. With typical starting builds coming in at half that range, now I need to tend to my income engine along the way.
3) Income is harder now and exponential growth is more apparent. Previously it did not make sense to tune your income setup much. If you squeeze out 50% more income, then you just have 50% more gold a day later when boss preparations begin. Now if income generation lasts another day, that 50% margin can become +125% (1.5*1.5-1). This can lead to active players charging the boss (or minibosses), while other players are just getting going. It seems right for active players to be rewarded for their efforts, but I can understand how this is frustrating for less active players.
4) Wow, look at the new flamingo! I don’t think I would ever make one for income because it is so factory inefficient, but I look forward to a Jones game! It looks like it will require a higher level of cooperation than any other map, which is the complete opposite of what it was before.
5) I’m still not a fan of stacking. The statues feel okay, although mana orbs still feel strong. Rings are too easy to stack. The new payoff will make bangles or arm parties the go-to item if you want a lot of income. Complex gem items will be ignored when it is so easy and rewarding to stack rings together.
6) I wonder if there is room for recipes between stacking and flamingos. For example, I really like recipes like wine of joy that can be approached in different ways and with any number of factories from nine to three, depending on how much symmetry is exploited and whether timing tricks are used. It is quite satisfying to identify patterns in higher tier items that lead to novel crafting methods. Instead, it looks like many of the new items can only be approached directly.
7) I don’t miss 5-input factories. Mana was neat for original Jones, but apart from that it was just a lot of stacking. Other recipes could be added, but it would not be such a good thing.
8) I’m indifferent about 3-input factories. I can see why “?” are confusing to people without really being such a good thing otherwise. Mixing 2- and 3-input recipes may be more confusing than useful. I guess I’ll stick with my suggestion of keeping 2-input recipes, but restoring the 3-input factory as a shortcut for (A+B)+C.
9) Maybe factory costs should scale. We all know and love $10k factories, but maybe they should increase in cost. Players are already rewarded to minimizing other infrastructure, so why not reward clever factory reuse? Stacked recipes would have to be tuned accordingly.
10) I wonder about doing a pass on mini-bosses. They could be a good place to leverage higher recipes, and my curiosity was piqued about the idea of mini-bosses revealing an altar that has some effect on a game. Great idea, make it happen! :)June 10, 2013 at 2:20 pm #11638
Thank you Qonen , i did the 4 Gunship ;)
And it was by looking at your starting ground that i post on the forum that something should be done to allow people to do something when they don’t have wood. I still think some recipe should be add that use flour and let’s say spirits. I still think that scattering ressources a little bit more (but with small differences) is a good idea.
Besides that, i completely agree with everything Qonen said :)
@jchrisholmes : I don’t agree with you, the deep 2 port factory is really fun in my opinion, much more than the “5 slot factory only used to build statues” was… That said i wouldn’t mind that three factory could be reintroduce for some specific items, aspecially one that used to require 3 different items (glass and so on…)
I am playing a Mr Jones map that was abandonned by nearly all his player… A real nightmare ! I love it ! I will post the link when we will have beaten it ;)June 10, 2013 at 3:23 pm #11654
The point of the 3 vs 5 port factory was that you could do very well with good chaining using 3 port factories. If you wanted to do well using only one type of base resource, it scaled up to the 5 port factory. And adding mana as another mechanism for the 5 port factory was also a great idea.June 20, 2013 at 9:47 pm #12094
Have these ‘improvements’ resulted in increased usership? I’m playing less games at once and seeing the same people in my games so I assume not. The game that you effectively deleted was much better than this. You might want to fix it before you have zero players and no game at all.June 21, 2013 at 4:17 pm #12127
To be honest, I’m enjoying the game more than I ever did while 5 slot factories were around.
I can understand and agree with concerns that the depth of construction makes Recipedia much harder to memorize now, but I find the many stages of production required to be much more fulfilling than ALL STATUES, ALL THE TIME. Really, that’s what the game had turned into, and I appreciate that jamming 125 of material X is no longer the only way to fly. Mana orbs could probably do with a little more nerfing, but at least they require marginally more effort than statues.
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