Devs: Timeframe on improvements/roll-back?

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This topic contains 20 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Delha 6 years, 4 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 21 total)
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  • #11176

    kheldar633

    I’m going to go out on a limb here and speak for the other veteran players who, like me, think this latest revamp of the game is a gigantic step backward: When do you think we’ll either experience a roll-back to how things were or a significant improvement upon what has been revamped?

    As a previously-avid player who’s now almost completely bored with the game in its current state, I’d love to know when I should come back to either enjoy the game that was here previously or to help test some new incarnation that provides at least some challenge.

    • This topic was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by  kheldar633.
    • This topic was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by  kheldar633.
    #11183

    raetonycass

    I am wiht kheldar on this one. The game is rather boring currently. It takes way too long to make any gold to actually play with. Using the blender method to make income is easier and cheaper than crafting specific things. I only use it for the bosses and mini bosses. The game just isn’t fun anymore. I do think the new tutorials are a huge improvement but the game itself isn’t.

    #11191

    Daniel
    Member

    I hear you on the issues with 2-ingredient recipes. We are working on some fixes, though the plan is to have them part of a more comprehensive update of how altars and factories work.

    Some stuff in the pipeline.
    – Lovely new art
    – Rotating altars
    – Complex, challenging expert recipes

    If you want to take a break while we are working on updates, you can subscribe to the twitter feed: @LeapDayGameNew

    We’ll update there when the new features are out. No exact dates…I find that those cause more stress for everyone than just going heads down and getting the work done. :-)

    Appreciate all the playing,
    Danc.

    #11193

    leapaubepine

    @daniel : Thank you for the reply, but meanwhile could you just change the multiplier so that there will only be 2 multipiers in order to increase diversity ? (I have talked a lot about that in other posts). I know you are really busy but it should not take you to long. If you do not do it i would really appreciate to know why and why you create a special multiplier for dead end items.

    @raetonycass : I am sorry but i have to disagree with you, i don’t think the game is boring now, even if challenge is a little bit lower. I am sure they will be able to add some really interesting challenge with the 2 items factory. I also don’t think it is to slow to build income. I am always able to build an income of at least 1000 gold at beginning of a new game. And if i take enough time playing (usually one hour), i am always able to build more than 4000 gold income after 12-24h which is enough to greatly contribute to defeat any boss after 48h in the game. Moreover even if blender can be a quick and quite effective solution to start a new game, i have yet to see a blender that is able to beat my initial income (For example on my current map with 300 000 gold to start, the best blender i have ever seen has been build by one of my neighbour that started in a forest for 1383 gold. I am in a water/food rich area and i am reaching an income of 2124…).

    #11197

    toquerific

    @daniel: Thank you for rotating altars. Thank you! Thank you! I haven’t even seen them yet, but I thank you in advance.

    #11199

    Daniel
    Member

    @leapaupine I’m looking into some recipe configs that have fewer dead end items so the special multipliers should be less of an issue.

    I am rather curious about reports of folks specializing in only specific recipes. Many of the ones that are described as preferred are not actually the best bang for the buck. Like arm parties or shadow armor are much more profitable in most situations.

    What variables make something like the pink flamingo so preferable? Perhaps that it is a decent value and it doesn’t require any trade goods like rings or necklaces? One path that is under discussion is making trade goods more important to higher tier items.

    #11201

    crisofer

    I find making pink flamingos preferable because, like you said, it doesn’t require any trade goods. You often don’t start with anyone around you, and if you do, you both have to be online and coordinated enough to get a transfer going. Even then, unless you pass back and forth, you often only have one person get the majority of the benefits with the new setup.

    With the flamingo, you can make mahna mahnas while you work up to a flamingo, and even when it’s unfinished, you get a reasonable income.

    necklaces are definitely mid-game items to make. If anything, people will push gems to their border for trade to be considerate, but then you have to make it over there to pick it up (x2 neighbours) which you don’t have starting resources for.

    Sundials used to be the go-to item before the crafting update, but they don’t seem as viable / easy with starting resources and the new crafting system.

    #11222

    qonen

    I agree that arm parties and shadow armor are valuable. However, these are not commonly made for income because by the time it is possible to make them then the map is practically won anyway. That being said, if higher maps were added then these items could become steps on the income ladder. Along these lines, I have never personally ever seen glowing armor made. For current maps, a few thousand gold for a couple days gives plenty of gold to make a solid contribution versus the boss, so working on income beyond that not useful. Further, the only maps where you need large amounts of gold are maps that lack active participation of others, in which case making armor or arm parties is not practical anyway.

    Pink flamingos not only provide good value, but they are also pretty easy to make compared to items of similar value. Compare it to dull earrings which are a lot harder to craft, yet are worth much less. Dull armor is a slightly better value, but compare it to a pink flamingo and three upgraded rings. Still, even if you massively buffed the value of armor and such, I would not bother with them because I can already get enough gold with easier items. The same applies to any potential new higher tier items. I’d need a reason to have more gold to make me strive to make them.

    If your goal is to encourage trade, non-gem items should be harder to make and/or gem-based items should be easier to make. In this line of thought, I don’t find current gem-based items heavily rooted in trade. Often players just end up handing off gems without additional participation. I wonder about a mechanism that favors deeper interaction, like player unique buffs that aid crafting in different ways.

    #11226

    Silverthorn

    The reports you’ve heard mostly refer to starter items or items you can work up to from a starter, and the flamingo is perfect there at the moment.

    crisofer above explained that nicely, also about sundials and necklaces and it usually being one person reaping the major benefits of a trade.
    There’s the trade multiplier for everyone else of course, which absolutely does justify handing over gems or other things.

    However, given that the fun in this game comes from actually crafting something yourself and scoring that nice profit for yourself, it might feel like a bit of a sacrifice/a favor to give your gem to someone so they can make the big bucks, and that same feeling might keep people from begging/pestering others for gems – doing those begging rounds isn’t a very pleasant task to undergo.
    So I think people tend to naturally try to do what they can on their own first, and then ask others when they’re not getting any further, not the other way round, especially in a game like this that cultivates a community of nice and considerate people (which is an amazingly impressive feat, imo, and I like that a lot).

    Right after it was implemented, the dull armor was a highly sought after item and made for income mid-game very often, because the effort/input to profit ratio was really awesome (OP really), and with a bit of tinkering, all three people involved could score full value off of it.
    With the recipe overhaul, that ratio is now in the negative numbers for the dull armor and most other higher gem items.

    Also by the time one person is able to cover a territory large enough and the seriously expensive setup required to make these items (tons of train track, usually), it is highly likely beating the main boss is just around the corner, ie. by that time the game is at a point where it just doesn’t make sense anymore and the income isn’t really required anymore, either.

    Err so, short list of reasons why gem items requiring 4+ different gems never get made “just because”:

    – Effort/profit ratio doesn’t justify it, neither on the “gonna do it” side nor on the “gonna get someone else to do it” side
    – Income from these items not required by the time they could be made
    – Apparent inclination of people to keep to themselves and/or not to bother other people for stuff.

    Edit: Ninja’d by Q while I was writing. /shakes fist. What he said, basically, including suggestions in last paragraph. :P I’d sign all of it.

    #11232

    crisofer

    I had a thought, and I’m just putting it out there.

    I think a problem with the current crafting system is that the trade of gems is at the lowest tier, which contributes 1/32nd (or whatever) of the final good. Person A gives person B a gem, and then person B works magic on it, and then gets the benefit of it (or passes it off to person A so that they get full value… but even then, it seems like an exploit of the system rather than an intended behaviour here). Under normal behaviour, person A just gives the gem away and ignores it…

    …and then goes off to make a flamingo or something… ^_~

    What if… and humour me here… what if each person could make things with their gems (gem crafts / goods)… and then these things could be traded to other people to make larger things?

    For instance:

    Silver + Mana (as an example) => Silver Rings
    Diamond + Mana => Diamond Rings
    Ruby + Mana => Ruby Rings
    (etc)

    Any 2 types of rings => Promise Ring (as an example)
    Promise Ring + … => …

    Gem crafts that “merge” at the higher tier:

    Silver Ring + Silver Ring => Silver Earring
    Diamond Ring + Diamond Ring => Diamond Earring
    Ruby Ring + Ruby Ring => Ruby Earring
    (etc)

    Any 2 types of Earrings => Promise Earrings
    Promise Earrings + … => …

    Not only would this allow more involvement and teamwork between more than one person… it also involves coordination (“i want to make Promise Earrings instead… can you make, and pass along, an Emerald Earring instead of an Emerald Ring?”)

    Also, this would allow for people to “prepare” for trades, as well as being able to bring these back to the collector for intermediate income.

    The stacking would also be interesting… do you try to make 2 Promise Rings, or 1 Promise Earring (which would be worth more than 2 Promise Rings)? Maybe you can’t make Earrings because of space issues… or could actually be a stepping stone to something more complicated.

    Anywho. Just a thought. Sorry for the long post. 6_6

    tl;dr: proposal: craft stuff with gems before trading to make bigger and better things?

    #11363

    dornbeast

    I am rather curious about reports of folks specializing in only specific recipes.

    I view a reasonable opening setup as something that turns in 600 to 1200 gold per leap day. If I have an ending income beyond what it takes to defeat the boss, I’ll usually be somewhere around 2500 to 3000, assuming that I don’t set up a high-profit gem trade. A Flamingo is roughly 2.5 to 5 times my starting target, equals or exceeds my expected ending income, and I can have one inside of twenty-four hours, or even from the very start of the game. Once I have that, I don’t need anything else; I can start saving up for the endgame.

    Getting an Arm Party isn’t a two-person job anyway; the relative rarity of crystal guarantees that. The only way that would happen is if the two people in question had effectively divided the world between them already, and were busy with the endgame. Comparing items that are impractical or impossible to build when you only have two people with an item that can be built by one person is hardly fair.

    Finally, of the items that can be built with only two people, only Sundials come close to competing with Flamingos. Since, as has been noted, trades are generally one-sided, this isn’t particularly practical – a problem which has been made worse by the inability to rotate shops and the unified multipliers. When it was factories, it was relatively easy to set up a system where Player One could put a gem into Player Two’s factory, then take the ring and make something with it, regardless of the direction the trade went. This gave Player Two a starting value of 320 to 440 gold, rather than 40 to 60. With shops, the profit “flows” one way, and the multipliers don’t favor trading enough to make it worthwhile.

    #11371

    Daniel
    Member

    Good comments all around. I’ve got an experimental rebalancing of the 2 ingredient recipes that is in the pipe that takes some of these things into account. It almost certainly won’t be the final recipes, but it explores having fewer dead ends and takes into account space and trading cost a bit more when balancing.

    @crisofer I would like to get later tier trade goods into the game that are unique to each player. Other things keep coming up in terms of priorities, but the idea has its hooks in my brain. :-)

    @dornbeast Tell me more about the ‘profit flowing one way’ with crafting buildings. There was a bug fixed with trade value a day or so ago…I wonder if things are still broken if you start up a new map. Crafting buildings and factories should treat the shared value of goods sent between players identically.

    #11373

    dornbeast

    Perhaps I could have written that better. I wasn’t concerned about a error in the gold calculations as much as a physical direction. Fixed output directions in shops aren’t quite a one-way street, but it’s the closest metaphor I can think of – they tend to force their output to go “south.” Going against the path that the shops force isn’t impossible, but it makes it harder to produce the ring and trade it back, which was one of the more common ways to even out the trade imbalance built in to simply handing over a gem and letting the other player do all the processing.

    #11375

    leapaubepine

    First, i am not sure that reducing the number of dead end items will reduce the problem you have with the dead end multiplier. I think that people will only produce the dead end items that are still avaiable. In my opinion, that will reduce the possibility you give to player, in the same way that now, i only produce absinthe for income purpose, never sticky buns…

    To give you some tips i can describe the way i play a typical game :
    – I usually start a new game during the evening, when i go home after work. I try to setup an icome above 1000 gold/ld. For that, depending of my starting ground i will build one of these : 4 spyglass or 4 fire bread or 4 crockpot. If i have the possibility to do so, i put a gem on my border. I don’t even try to setup an exchange, as it never happen that the only neighbour who could trade with me is connected at the same time. If i still have some gold, i will try to setup a little other thing (in example 4 cooked food). This never take me more than an hour (usually much less). I think this first step of the game is ok.

    – I play again 24h later (after work). I destroy everything, i usually have around 1000000 gold. At this moment i can lay down 3 or 4 fire towers and still have some cash to build income. I don’t even try to setup an exchange as sundials are not worth it anymore. If i can i will try to build 4 Absinthe as it is very fun and give a good income. If i can not, i will either try to build a flamingo or 12-16 low dead end items (spyglass…). In my opinion this is the funniest step of the game. It is really sad that we don’t have enough choice, the fact that i am not always able to build interseting things like 4 Absinthe is quite unfortunate.

    – I come back 24h later (2 days in game). I have now around 3-4 million gold. I can easely reach the boss now and contribute to his defeat. I will build wathever needed and i will actively call for gem exchange if they are needed putting open crane to receive these gems. I will not try to increase my income anymore, as i usually have enough gold to take care of at least 2 pillar.

    – 24 h later i should be able to finish the game if other players was active enough.

    I hope this will help :)

    #11407

    Daniel
    Member

    Give the latest recipes a try in a new game and let me know what you think. There may be some alternate paths you find worthwhile.

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