This topic contains 54 replies, has 20 voices, and was last updated by  toquerific 6 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #9546

    colemanpants

    First, the changes to goods should have been mostly rolled back for the moment. We’ll set things up so in-progress games are not affected by the changes, then release.

    j

    #9598

    Daniel
    Member

    Some notes on upcoming changes to recipes
    One of the big issues that we’ve run into during the beta is teaching new players the basics of Leap Day. I don’t want to necessarily make the expert game easier, but I do want to create a more gradual slope for new players. My end goal is more players that can contribute meaningfully to high level coop games.

    What we’ve done
    We’ve done some work already here with the new tutorial maps. These are yielding better trained contributors (on average) than our previous tutorial. So we are improving the funnel into the game.

    The next problem in more detail
    The next step was to look at where new players were dropping out. They typically would start to understand how roads work. And then they’d hit factories. Several overwhelming aspects of factories.

    • Number of recipes: For new users, the recipedia is difficult to understand. Lots of recipes with lots of complexity. Exciting for some, scary for others.
    • “?” goods: New players often accidentally deliver a good and create junk or a recipe that they didn’t expect.
    • Clean factories: Since it is possible to deliver random items to factories and get something out, that is what players would do. Many of the higher level practices for creating isolated loops and tight timing never became readily obvious.

    We can teach some of this, but most players seem to grasp it only after 5 to 20 hours of play. By that point most people leave the game.

    New Recipes, New Buildings
    So we are running an experiment over the next few weeks.

    • Buildings: We are introducing a new type of collectible factory that builds a single recipe. The required goods are listed on top and the factory only accepts those goods. All old recipes are baked into the new buildings.
    • Recipes: Recipes have been reworked to require only 2 goods. This removes the ‘?’ from their requirement if you are using the Miser factory.
    • New goods: As a side effect of the recipe rework, there are 22 new goods to craft. My favorite is the Mahna Mahna.

    These are big changes and are going to requires new ways of playing for folks that have gotten used to the current recipes. What would be immensely helpful is playing the game with the new building and recipes and letting us know what works and what doesn’t. This is a work in progress so we’ll definitely be tweaking the game based off feedback and data.

    All this should be appearing in the game over the next day or so. If you are in an existing game, you shouldn’t see any of the changes. But when you start a new game, the new rules will be active.

    All the best! Really appreciate everyone who is helping with the beta. Your feedback, persistence and just general willingness to build this game into something better is amazing.

    Danc

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by  Daniel.
    • This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by  Daniel.
    #9601

    Zerack

    Sounds like lots of exciting changes are imminent! Colemanpants, is there any news on the recipe configuration info being available out of game? I’m in the middle of a super busy few weeks myself, but I’d love to get the online recipedia updated as soon as I can – easy access to the new recipe information would be helpful.

    I look forward to trying out the new stuff when I’m able to play a lot again!

    #9607

    Delha

    [post retracted]

    I had a suggested recipe change here, but might as well see what changes have already been put in place first.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by  Delha.
    • This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by  Delha.
    #9618

    kheldar633

    Does a recipe update really require a wholesale reboot of what’s been established? I had predicted minor tweaks to existing things and new additions rather than tossing the whole thing out the window.

    Also, large factories are fun.

    #9686

    Daniel
    Member

    And the new recipes are posted. Let us know if you find any issues.

    All the best,
    Danc.

    #9692

    Silverthorn

    Couldn’t wait and had to start a new rules game immediately!
    Two initial observations:

    – Gem goods (except rings) don’t seem to be working, or I don’t understand how. Using a gem+? puts out junk. It puzzles me either way how gem+? is supposed to result in necklace, shield AND hammer. (Maybe there are buildings for these now on each and every map requiring such a good? So no making these just for income, ever? Very confused.)

    – From the new tutorials I am assuming people are getting an unlimited amount of miser factories now instead of the old one.
    But this doesn’t seem to be true for those of us that aren’t new – when I started a new game with the new rules (AFTER going through the new tutorials), miser factory was still a special item in my vault with the same limited uses and the same pricing as before (4K+3K, resulting in prices that do not make it worth it after the first few).
    I wouldn’t object to having to keep using the previous standard factory, but it does put all existing players on unequal ground.

    #9694

    kheldar633

    No answer to my question and concerns?

    Looking through the new recipes, it seems like the end result is more factory tiers and smaller factory sizes. I would wager that two small factories with accompanying road systems are much larger (on average) than one large factory with its road system. Add into this that once you’re delivering products instead of raw materials you tend to use rails rather than roads, I’m having a hard time figuring out where this reboot of the game some from, philosophically.

    Also, as a side note, completing the new tutorials rewards a miser factory which seems to have added four miser factories to my inventory, but the impression from previous posts was that the miser factory is replacing the small factory. Please clarify.

    #9696

    kheldar633

    This update almost feels like you don’t like the original game you made and have started making a new one using the same engine. That’s how sweeping/damaging these changes feel to me.

    #9703

    Daniel
    Member

    Silverthorn
    – Good catch on the gems. We’ll look into that.
    – We’ll look into miser factories for existing players.

    Kheldar
    – The factories will bit a little bit trickier to use for more advanced recipes, but hopefully a little easier to use for early recipes.
    – As players start getting more specialized crafting buildings, the hope is that they’ll use these instead of the generic factories. Let me know if this is the case.

    This is definitely a revision rather than a pure feature addition. The joy of betas. :-) Think of it as an experiment with the hope of growing the community. The changes come from watching a lot of failed games. If we can get twice as many people into the end game even if that means teaching expert crafting later, that is a win.

    We’ll see how it goes. Appreciate you all putting it through the wringer.

    #9709

    kheldar633

    Flannigan and I have been experimenting with initial setups in a new game swapping wholesale selling (simply selling all raw goods available) with the best crafting we can come up with within the initial border. We have only found one configuration where I can beat his income (380 > 357) using factories. We couldn’t find a setup in his area that rivaled my wholesale setup.

    http://leapdaygame.com/index.html?observe=Pub_44f22ffe-31bf-491a-ae12-cf902abbdefa&player=1&x=27&y=17

    Twenty-three gold per leap day is little incentive to spend time on a non-wholesale setup. Did you plan to expand the initial land-grab to compensate for this or lower the prices of items?

    At first blush, this update seems to have actually *added* complexity to the recipedia making it even more confusing than it was and added more tiers into the game both early and late and made it harder to make money from the onset of a new game. I fail to see how any of that encourages new players’ embraces.

    The pre-patch game isn’t flawless, but clearly it’s fun or you wouldn’t have an audience. Many of us have made suggestions toward improving it. I don’t see how this reboot aligns with any of them.

    (Final paragraph removed since this is a public forum and I do not want to violate potential business plans of yours with regard to this game. You can reach out to me directly if you want to know more.)

    #9711

    Eskay

    For my own amusement and that of anybody who’d like to join me, I’m transcribing the new recipedia into a spreadsheet. Ideally it’ll give me a peek at the big picture before the update to Z’s site. Y’all should have edit access through that link.

    #9731

    Eskay

    That spreadsheet now covers the whole of the in-game recipedia. It doesn’t yet understand the method to make Necklaces, Shields, or Hammers; if you do, you’re invited to update it.

    #9738

    qonen

    I joined the game linked above. I started in an area with a lot of wood, so I thought I would try to make the new fine lumber. It was interesting to be able to throw water into the mix to get it done. It took a bit of thought to get all four factories chained. Some thoughts:

    1) The “?” in all recipes will confuse new players. In the past they were a bit more straight-forward. For example, lumber was just a mix of water and wood. Pick 3. In rare cases you could throw in a gem or such for the ?, but to a new player it was just 3 of water and wood. Now if you combiner water, wood, and wood, it is different than water, water, and wood. Old timers can adapt quickly (and I used this very thing for my fine lumber), but I worry it will confuse new players.
    2) I agree tier 1 goods are not rewarding to complete. You get out approximately what you put in. I wonder about making miser factories standard, rather than 3-input factories, to get around the confusion mentioned in (1).
    3) What about just discarding regular factories? That gets rid of the “?” confusion all-together. Then the values in Recipedia could bake in the penalty (which seems a bit harsh now that recipes are just 1.5x).
    4) 3-input factories could be reclaimed as (X + X) + X. That is amazing convenience! They could be awarded as special loot and possibly reduce the value of the good produced, in an interesting role-reversal with old miser factories.
    5) Other variations are possible. Both right-handed and left-handed miser factories seem obvious. Large factories could become (X+X)+(X+X), possibly with some other cost or penalty.

    #9740

    Eskay

    I appreciate the new change to not show wildcards in 2-piece recipes. Nice and clean!

    It’s still really confusing to craft them with 3-place factories, as follows:

    water + water + water = barrel
    water + water + wood = lumber
    water + wood + wood = oak
    wood + wood + wood = oak

    As qonen points out, now that lumber is worth less than oak, it’s asymmetric in the inputs.

    As I understand it, the intended solution is to somehow get 2-place factories to everybody and have them use those most of the time?

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